Physical & Emotional Abuse Support Group
Abuse is a general term for the treatment of someone that causes some kind of harm (to the abused person, to the abusers themselves, or to someone else) that is unlawful or wrongful. No one deserves abuse, period. Abuse can be emotional, physical, or sexual.
I have had questions lately about the difference between a narcissist and a psychopath. I am positive that my last 2 exes are narcissists. Probably the first as well. And I know the 2nd is a psychopath. But there are so many overlaps that I wanted to see where one ended and the other began. So today I found this info on http://samvak.tripod.com/ which has a lot of good info.
It is hard to distinguish narcissists from psychopaths. The latter may simply be a less inhibited and less grandiose form of the former. Some scholars have suggested the existence of a hybrid "psychopathic narcissist", or "narcissistic psychopath". Indeed, the DSM V Committee is considering to merge these personality disorders.
Still, there are some important nuances setting the two disorders apart:
As opposed to most narcissists, psychopaths are either unable or unwilling to control their impulses or to delay gratification. They use their rage to control people and manipulate them into submission.
Psychopaths, like narcissists, lack empathy but many of them are also sadistic: they take pleasure in inflicting pain on their victims or in deceiving them. They even find it funny!
Psychopaths are far less able to form interpersonal relationships, even the twisted and tragic relationships that are the staple of the narcissist.
Both the psychopath and the narcissist disregard society, its conventions, social cues and social treaties. But the psychopath carries this disdain to the extreme and is likely to be a scheming, calculated, ruthless, and callous career criminal. Psychopaths are deliberately and gleefully evil while narcissists are absent-mindedly and incidentally evil.
"As opposed to what Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil they lack the intention to cause harm (mens rea). As Millon notes, certain narcissists 'incorporate moral values into their exaggerated sense of superiority. Here, moral laxity is seen (by the narcissist) as evidence of inferiority, and it is those who are unable to remain morally pure who are looked upon with contempt.' (Millon, Th., Davis, R. - Personality Disorders in Modern Life - John Wiley and Sons, 2000). Narcissists are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of others. Their abusive conduct is off-handed and absent-minded, not calculated and premeditated like the psychopath's."
Psychopaths really do not need other people while narcissists are addicted to narcissistic supply (the admiration, attention, and envy of others).
Millon and Davis (supra) add (p. 299-300):
"When the egocentricity, lack of empathy, and sense of superiority of the narcissist cross-fertilize with the impulsivity, deceitfulness, and criminal tendencies of the antisocial, the result is a psychopath, an individual who seeks the gratification of selfish impulses through any means without empathy or remorse."
It is hard to distinguish narcissists from psychopaths. The latter may simply be a less inhibited and less grandiose form of the former. Some scholars have suggested the existence of a hybrid "psychopathic narcissist", or "narcissistic psychopath". Indeed, the DSM V Committee is considering to merge these personality disorders.
Still, there are some important nuances setting the two disorders apart:
As opposed to most narcissists, psychopaths are either unable or unwilling to control their impulses or to delay gratification. They use their rage to control people and manipulate them into submission.
Psychopaths, like narcissists, lack empathy but many of them are also sadistic: they take pleasure in inflicting pain on their victims or in deceiving them. They even find it funny!
Psychopaths are far less able to form interpersonal relationships, even the twisted and tragic relationships that are the staple of the narcissist.
Both the psychopath and the narcissist disregard society, its conventions, social cues and social treaties. But the psychopath carries this disdain to the extreme and is likely to be a scheming, calculated, ruthless, and callous career criminal. Psychopaths are deliberately and gleefully evil while narcissists are absent-mindedly and incidentally evil.
"As opposed to what Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil they lack the intention to cause harm (mens rea). As Millon notes, certain narcissists 'incorporate moral values into their exaggerated sense of superiority. Here, moral laxity is seen (by the narcissist) as evidence of inferiority, and it is those who are unable to remain morally pure who are looked upon with contempt.' (Millon, Th., Davis, R. - Personality Disorders in Modern Life - John Wiley and Sons, 2000). Narcissists are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of others. Their abusive conduct is off-handed and absent-minded, not calculated and premeditated like the psychopath's."
Psychopaths really do not need other people while narcissists are addicted to narcissistic supply (the admiration, attention, and envy of others).
Millon and Davis (supra) add (p. 299-300):
"When the egocentricity, lack of empathy, and sense of superiority of the narcissist cross-fertilize with the impulsivity, deceitfulness, and criminal tendencies of the antisocial, the result is a psychopath, an individual who seeks the gratification of selfish impulses through any means without empathy or remorse."
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I am nervous to cry in front of other people including my therapist because I can’t anticipate how he will react. Most of my life I was either beaten or teased for crying and during some of the worst of it I was told not to cry. My therapist asked me how I would want him to respond and I had no words. Maybe just a gentle reply that it was ok? Any positive therapy responses to crying?...
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It's so hard to move on from multiple traumas since childhood onward. I was forced to grow up without a family bc they abused me so bad. I was treated like I didn't exist when I wasn't being abused. It has effected me and my life in every way possible. I haven't been able to have anything that resembles a normal life bc of this despite years of therapies and medicines plus self help practices. My...
I find it hard to distinguish with my ex..especially when it comes to the definition of a narcissist who seeks 'the admiration, attention, and envy of others' which my ex did do big time..yet when it came to it, he also was 'unable or unwilling to control' his 'impulses or to delay gratification'.
He also used his rage to control people and manipulate them into submission.
So it gets a bit confusing there for me?..
He did choose his 'prey'..and could go all out to destroy and damage some people?, and then he also worked hard to get'the admiration, attention, and envy of others'?
So he was a narcissistic pyschopath?..Or a full blooded psychopath?..Or like it says..he was likely actually a 'merge' of these two personality disorders?
He always claimed to have a huge sense of morality..and loved to make out to everyone, that he did, but I learnt that he had absoloutely no morals, when it really came down to it?..
To me he was a big blend of all the above..
I think its great to find real 'terms' and definitions for his devastatingly (once inexplicable to me) behaviours..
It is still a huge validation for me, that I didn't 'imagine' that someone could really be like that...and that he WAS so like that..
It explains so much to me..and it also makes me see, that no-one could 'ever' deal with that kind of person, which helps me move further and further away..from him, which is a saving grace.
My first bf would lie all the time, and for no apparent reason, like lying about "building" car parts (complete w/ updating me on his 'progress' along the way)... until I found the receipts from where he actually BOUGHT these car parts! Stuff like that made no sense to me! Why would anyone lie about such stupid things? And of course there were the, "no I didn't talk to her," "no I haven't seen her," "no, I haven't cheated," "I promise not to do that again" lies nonstop.
But the 2nd bf was a whole different animal. He was a true PATHOLOGICAL liar...in that EVERYTHING that came out of his mouth was a complete lie. And not just short simple lies like the previous ex. But HUGE, ENORMOUS lies w/ their own timelines that extended forever. Everything he told me about his life was a huge lie. He told me he was in the marines (likely because he knew I was a supporter of our military). He went on about how his unit would go into villages after they had been bombed, and killed all the survivors (women, children, and pets included)...this should have been my first red flag into how sick and demented he is. But he actually played it up, pretending to be remorseful of what he did over there. But it was interesting how this "marine" had no military gear, uniforms, pictures, ANYTHING around his house indicating he was in the military. Also he has a lazy eye, I'm not even sure he'd pass the vision test to get into the military. And he didn't have an ounce of muscle on his body and was quite obese, I have a hard time believing he was EVER in shape (and saw no pictures to prove otherwise). Then it was pretty much confirmed when I went to a shooting range with him. Not only could he not even hit OUR target (was hitting the targets belonging to the people in the lane next to us), but he couldn't even OPERATE the gun!! He tried to get the clip out and couldn't figure it out (had likely never used a gun before). He of course wouldn't let me try, and make him look like the retard he is. So he went back out to the counter and came back a few min later after having the store clerk get the clip out (and show him how). He came back in telling me that the gun was brand new and had "too much oil" and that's why the clip was stuck (he's a stupid psychopath btw, most have exceptional intelligence, not him). That's when I realized he was never in the military. But he had gone on and on about his military experiences. All completely fabricated. And there were plenty other immense fabrications of his imagination like this one. Basically everything he ever told me were just his pathological lies.
what i would love to know is how they get like this....i have read so much on the Narc and how there is no real scientific evidence of what causes this...some underlying similarities of childhood abuse,...too much emphasis on self importance etc....but what turns a small unassuming, innocent child into a heartless, self indugent, bastard..capable of caring for nobody but himself.
That sounds very right. I have had many discussions whether NPD people are intentionally evil.
And I dont think so. Its like a robot with only aim to feel superior by neglecting others. They intentionally mess with people by playing scripts.
My mom doesnt salt anything she cooks so we can have a salt discussion every single day at dinner. Yes every single day. Her intention is to make herself feel superior for not using salt and I am not sure she gets how this affects others. She just plays the script over and over for years now. Only someone with no concept of reality would do this.
My mom will gleefully setup a hurtful situation but the intent is always all about her. Its becasue she must prove she is better or get attention. Sometimes this comes off as evil intent to a normal person. Its such a fine line I dont know.
I am not sure if I met a psychopath. I am so suspicious of any man I meet now.
Ted Bundy is a famous example. He was able to lure a LOT of women into his car w/ his charm, to be murdered. And even while he was being tried for murder (representing himself since he was so arrogant), he had a woman (his gf) get on the stand and talk about how she couldn't believe he was a murderer and how much she loved and wanted to marry him. Even the judge himself told Bundy how he should have been a lawyer and he would have loved to have him on the bar with him. They are masters of charm to anyone who's not been their victim.
'A narcissist feels terrorized at the thought of vulnerability (being emotionally honest), and develops a pathological false self to guard unresolved emotional wounds.
In the myth of Narcissus, the hero fell in love with his own reflection. On the surface it may seem he was madly in love with himself. But look deeper. He was in love with his reflection. This reflection was not his true self.
The very fact he fell in love with the illusionary part of himself meant he was not capable of loving his true self. To escape these disowned unacceptable parts a narcissist scripts and creates an image of himself that he can tolerate.
The projection is a psychological phenomenon whereby the narcissist will see his own disowned parts as the individual he is attacking / criticising / demeaning / abusing.
The victim of the abuse will literally become to the narcissist all the aspects of himself that he is disgusted by.
He will accuse this person of being inconsiderate, deceptive, uncaring and untrustworthy. The enemy within has become the enemy without.
One of the most obvious symptoms of high level narcissism is intense jealousy and often severe sexual perversion and insecurities.
Narcissistic behaviour can incur verbally and physically violent (and even murderous) jealousy, and extreme degradation of the opposite sex.
Male narcissists are often misogynists. They desperately seek women yet inwardly despise them. These men are totally turned on by extreme sexuality yet are perversely disgusted by attractive female attributes, believing women are promiscuous, sexually manipulative and attention seeking.
The male narcissist will often play out a deep subconscious mother-revenge by running his female partner into the ground. He will destroy her self-esteem, femininity and sexuality piece by piece.
Another symptom of narcissism is pathological lying. Purposeful lying is narcissist and is born from a need to manipulate in order to control. (This lying creates total distrust and separation with others. Which destroys relationships).
The narcissist never matures to the level where he can accept essential 'emotional truths'.
Common Behaviours of a Narcissist:
Me versus You mentality;
Competitiveness;
Tit for tat retaliations;
Striving for the spotlight and attention;
Excessive generosity to outside people;
Uncomfortable when others are incurring attention or praise;
If cant be centre of attention will either discredit or leave the experience;
May fake illnesses or problems to procure attention / sympathy;
Abusive verbal behaviour when angered or insecure;
Tendency toward violent and even criminal behaviour;
Inappropriate and inapplicable language in front of women and children;
Dark moods that affect others;
False promises;
Glorifies and falsifies achievements past and present;
Expects to be recognised and praised;
Finds others not complying with wants intolerable;
Extreme sensitivity to criticism;
Extreme defensiveness when confronted;
Pathological lying;
Disdain for rules, regulations, decency and morality;
Childish outbursts and behaviour;
Very little consideration for how behaviour affects others;
Extremely lack of compassion or sensitivity towards love partners (and others') problems;
Grossly unsupportive to familiars in times of need;
Brushes incidences under the carpet;
Uses allies real or imagined to back up claims and arguments;
Uses guilt and manipulation to influence love partners;
Doesnt trust love partners;
Tendency towards jealousy and possessiveness;
Capable of sexually degrading name calling;
Can steal, harm or hide property to sabotage love partners;
Uses vengeance, threats and intimidation to control ;
Uses excessive charm and manipulation to control;
Little (if any) sense of conscience;
Discredits love partners to gain attention / sympathy from others;
Will attack when confronted or questioned;
Emotionally punishes love partners when feeling insecure;
Emotionally punishes love partners when they are struggling with issues, losses, grief or challenges;
Employs unpredictable and unaccountable behaviour;
Capable of disgusting behaviour to gain the upper hand and control a situation;
Feels powerful and fulfilled when creating powerlessness in another;
Gross failure to apologise or have sympathy after creating tears, distress or trauma to the love partner.
Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse that is used by narcissists that is deeply insidious and difficult to pinpoint. It works by instilling confusion. If you are being gaslighted you will lose trust in your senses, identity and common environment.
The narcissist will tell you:
What you are feeling and thinking;
An interaction that you believed was decent with another person actually had agendas connected to it;
Your body language appears suggestive to other people;
A friend or family member has made certain references about you;
You were seen in a certain place acting inappropriately;
You said or did something (you werent aware of) when tired, distracted, unaware, intoxicated or asleep;
Certain information was discovered about you;
Certain people (you thought were loyal) are now agreeing about your faults;
The incident (created by the narcissist) was your fault, or merely a perception based on your paranoia or unstable emotions;
An excuse for the incidence based on a story that extracts guilt from you, whereby you feel awful for making the judgement you did;
Other people perceive you as bossy, controlling, manipulative, uncaring, incapable etc. (defective in some way).
A narcissist will dodge accountability in a discussion in a variety of ways.
Telling you repetitively to lower your voice;
Interrupting you with unrelated conversation;
Telling you to let them finish what they are saying whilst continuing to be psychologically and verbally abusive;
Making references to allies and unrelated people;
Telling you the matter is resolved without validating the conversation in a way that allows you to feel resolved;
Asking if you are happy to get that off your chest and then changing the topic;
Throwing in an abusive unrelated comment to anger or upset you;
Refusing to discuss the issue with you;
Bringing up an issue they are unhappy about, and treating that as the focus of conversation.
The narcissist will tell you:
What you are feeling and thinking;
An interaction that you believed was decent with another person actually had agendas connected to it;
Your body language appears suggestive to other people;
A friend or family member has made certain references about you;
You were seen in a certain place acting inappropriately;
You said or did something (you werent aware of) when tired, distracted, unaware, intoxicated or asleep;
Certain information was discovered about you;
Certain people (you thought were loyal) are now agreeing about your faults;
The incident (created by the narcissist) was your fault, or merely a perception based on your paranoia or unstable emotions;
An excuse for the incidence based on a story that extracts guilt from you, whereby you feel awful for making the judgement you did;
Other people perceive you as bossy, controlling, manipulative, uncaring, incapable etc. (defective in some way).
Love partners feel a heightened state of anxiety. There is no ability to feel safe under these conditions.
Where normal people love others and empathize with them, the narcissist loves his False Self and identifies with it to the exclusion of all else his True Self included.
The narcissist inflicts pain and abuse on others. He devalues sources of supply, callously and off-handedly abandons them, and can discard people, places, partnerships, and friendships unhesitatingly.
Sudden shifts between sadism and altruism, abuse and love, ignoring and caring, abandoning and clinging, viciousness and remorse, the harsh and the tender - are, perhaps, the most difficult to comprehend and to accept.
These swings produce in people around the narcissist emotional insecurity, an eroded sense of self worth, fear, stress, and anxiety (walking on eggshells).
Gradually, emotional paralysis ensues and they come to occupy the same emotional wasteland inhabited by the narcissist, his prisoners and hostages in more ways than one - and even when he is long out of their life.'
The narcissist idealises and then DEVALUES and discards the object of his initial idealisation.
This abrupt, heartless devaluation IS abuse. ALL narcissists idealise and then devalue.
This is THE core narcissistic behaviour. The narcissist exploits, lies, insults, demeans, ignores (the "silent treatment"), manipulates, controls.
All these are forms of abuse.
Avoidant personality disorder (APD or AvPD)[1] or Anxious personality disorder (APD)[2] is a personality disorder recognized in the DSM handbook, characterized by a pervasive pattern of social inhibition, feelings of inadequacy, extreme sensitivity to negative evaluation and avoidance of social interaction. People with avoidant personality disorder often consider themselves to be socially inept or personally unappealing, and avoid social interaction for fear of being ridiculed, humiliated, rejected or disliked. They typically present themselves as loners and report feeling a sense of alienation from society.
Avoidant personality disorder is usually first noticed in early adulthood, and is associated with perceived or actual rejection by parents or peers during childhood. Whether the feeling of rejection is due to the extreme interpersonal monitoring attributed to people with the disorder is still disputed.
Borderline Personality Disorder
While a person with depression or bipolar disorder typically endures the same mood for weeks, a person with BPD may experience intense bouts of anger, depression, and anxiety that may last only hours, or at most a day.5 These may be associated with episodes of impulsive aggression, self-injury, and drug or alcohol abuse. Distortions in cognition and sense of self can lead to frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, friendships, gender identity, and values. Sometimes people with BPD view themselves as fundamentally bad, or unworthy. They may feel unfairly misunderstood or mistreated, bored, empty, and have little idea who they are. Such symptoms are most acute when people with BPD feel isolated and lacking in social support, and may result in frantic efforts to avoid being alone.
People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike). Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all. Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans. These fears of abandonment seem to be related to difficulties feeling emotionally connected to important persons when they are physically absent, leaving the individual with BPD feeling lost and perhaps worthless. Suicide threats and attempts may occur along with anger at perceived abandonment and disappointments.
People with BPD exhibit other impulsive behaviors, such as excessive spending, binge eating and risky sex. BPD often occurs together with other psychiatric problems, particularly bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, and other personality disorders.
I dont know how he stays and goes through this,...he is always down, and is now having trouble paying his own bills because he is paying hers...she doesnt work..she lost her job cause she was missing so much time...
I understand the love part, and doing for people because you love them, or staying and trying to help them..but my god how much of ones own life do you have to sacrifice for that of someone with these issues...
http://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2007/06/psychopath-vs-sociopath.html
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-a-psychopath-and-a-sociopath.htm
Now, my Ex is still up to these tricks, with me and with my daughters, but no one seems to be able to catch him. He's definitely narcissistic. His reflection of the world is he himself. Nothing else matters.
But, his underlying need is for sadistic pleasure, small and large. I am told by those who listen to me that his is a psychopath, but I think the merged definition is more correct.
So, how does a psychopath get diagnosed?
First of all, everyone else is the problem, so he's never go to therapy.
Second, he's such a good liar, weaving this and that into his conversations that he rarely trips up. Only those that live with him get it. The outside world finds him charming!
One funny thing - He has followed the grateful dead for years. And,when we were first married, he came home with this enormous blown up picture of people swirling around in a dustbowl at some concert and he told me that was a great time.
Then, when people came to visit me and commented on it, he told them he "thought" that was him, in the middle of the picture. I just chuckled and said nothing. But, when his deadhead friends came over, they identified the exact concert that the picture came from and he hadn't even gone - It was far out in Oregon somewhere. Reminded of this when I heard about the tools that were really purchased!
Bt, seriously, how do you nail these people down if they are not homicidal, but are genuinely sadistic in a premeditated way, and "Just" verbally abusive. My daughters and I are taking a spin in our heads every day! RB