Very helpful thanks!

Thanks EPagain for another great post
I believe nutrition is everything.
I do take a small dose Melatonin before sleep. it gives me that small boost to help me sleep and is supposed to be good for my immune system.

Just seen this and thought it was relevant so adding it here.

http://health.yahoo.net/caring/5-foods-that-help-you-sleep
1. Cherries. Fresh and dried cherries are one of the only natural food sources of melatonin, the chemical that controls the body's internal clock to regulate sleep. Researchers who tested tart cherries and found high levels of melatonin recommend eating them an hour before bedtime or before a trip when you want to sleep on the plane.

2. Bananas. Potassium and magnesium are natural muscle relaxants, and bananas are a good source of both. They also contain the amino acid L-tryptophan, which gets converted to 5-HTP in the brain. The 5-HTP in turn is converted to serotonin (a relaxing neurotransmitter) and melatonin.

3. Toast. Carbohydrate-rich foods trigger insulin production, which induces sleep by speeding up the release of tryptophan and serotonin, two brain chemicals that relax you and send you to sleep..

4. Oatmeal. Like toast, a bowl of oatmeal triggers a rise in blood sugar, which in turn triggers insulin production and the release of sleep-inducing brain chemicals. Oats are also rich in melatonin, which many people take as a sleep aid..

5. Warm milk. Like bananas, milk contains the amino acid L-tryptophan, which turns to 5-HTP and releases relaxing serotonin. It's also high in calcium, which promotes sleep.

EPagain etal:

I would be cautious about the bananas. Here's why:
Demyelination alters the structural and functional relationships of voltage-gated ion channels along the axonal membrane of the nerve cell.

Exposed channels cause potassium ions to leak, so causing the axon to "short circuit". By closing exposed potassium channels in these damaged nerve fibres, fampridine-SR (Ampyra) enables the axon to transmit nerve impulses again.

Because the nerve transmission fibers are damaged, because the myelin "insulation has been stripped from the wire," the conductive ions within the fibers leak out of the exposed channels or pores all along the length of the whole fiber... They're only supposed to exit at the nodes, which are spaced out regularly along the length of the whole fiber. And their exit is a controlled process, controlled by chemical and electrical changes. So, if there's excess external potassium along the exposed length of the fiber, regardless of whether or not it came from inside of the fiber/cell (the "leaks" from the channels/pores), or from the outside of the fiber/cell (excess dietary intake), you have a problem. Therefore, reducing dietary intake of potassium reduces the intrinsic external potassium that the fibers are exposed to, and reduces the problem (excess potassium external to the nerve fiber's exposed channels/pores.

I'm doing a separate post because the first was rather technical.

You say that magnesium is a natural muscle relaxant. I take 500 mg/day and it has improved my walking tremendously.

My question is, since I also have urinary incontinence and take Toviaz, am I defeating its purpose by taking the magnesium?

First, I am not a doc so I would double check with one or a pharmacist.

Second, My husband took 4-AP (potassium blocker) for the reasons stated in Reply#4 (see my previous posts a year or so ago). He said this helped a little better than provigil which he said did little for him. I told him the premise of how 4-AP worked. After both of us discussed it we wondered if taking a little extra potassium might help. He already took a multivitamin so we just added 1 potassium capsule and a banana a day..nothing crazy. He said this did a little more than the 4-AP potassium blocker. So I would say you need to work with your doctor to find out if a little less or a little more potassium would be helpful for you.

Summation or hubby's subjective observations on what helped fatigue more:
More potassium > potassium blocker (4-AP)> Provigil
Best -a little better than 4-AP> a little better > not much better
Also note that many out here have found provigil to really help reduce fatigue. Different meds will help different people to varying degrees I am just letting you know my hubby's results.

WARNING: You should NEVER take more potassium blocker than directed as it can block too much potassium stopping your heart. Nor do you want to overdose on potassium as this too can result in fatal results.

As far as Toviaz goes... it slows potassium absorption in the gut so IF you choose to eat bananas do so an hour or two before you take Toviaz.
http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-151902-Toviaz+Oral.aspx?drugid=151902&drugname=Toviaz+Oral&dmid=1830&dmtitle=ANTICHOLINERGICS/SOLID%20ORAL%20POTASSIUM%20CAPSULES&intrtype=DRUG&pagenumber=9

I do know magnesium has a laxative effect and may increase bowel movements(pooping). However, I am not a pharmacist and could not tell you if magnesium would counteract Toviaz bladder urgency (peeing). I do know that people out here also use Gelnique for bladder issues. You could speak to your pharmacists about these two drugs and what interactions they may have with supplements and other meds you may be taking.
http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Multiple_Sclerosis_MS/forum/11512804-has-anyone-ever-tried-gelnique

Best wishes to you,
EP

Thanks for the magnesium tip. I will check to see how much I am taking. There seems to be some in the calcium tabs because the two go together.

Re the 4AP vs. Provigil: I tried the 4AP 3 or 4 times and every time it make me feel worse or gave me tingling sensations in my legs. It did not help me like my other local MS friends. They all like 4AP or Amypra a lot. But it didn't work for me. I guess everyone is different.

I love Provigil and it really helps my fatigue.

I have always read that Melatonin was not good for people with an auto-immune illness. Please look up on Google: "melatonin and autoimmune diseases". So I have avoided that supplement. My immune system seems to be in overdrive, which I thought was why I don't get the flu, colds and other illnesses. But you people seem to be different from me. I stopped taking melatonin when I saw a warning on the bottle. I don't really know. I guess no one really knows. But I have stayed away from melatonin. But I eat oatmeal every day and it doesn't make me sleepy.

I take Ambien for sleeping because my plaques seem to have affected my sleeping ability. Ambien really works for me and I am on the same dosage for years. So I will not take melatonin. But thanks for the information that some of you are taking it. I will follow your progress.

Some of you younger people with MS are more up to date on the supplements, so I will listen to what you have to say and try to keep up. But please be careful of the interaction with auto-immune diseases and some of the supplements.

ezone-

I say in many posts I am not a doc so speak to yours and get tested to find out what applies to you.

My hubby has taken melatonin off and on for maybe 6 months and no change in any symptoms. I will say if you continually get up or can not get into restful sleep this has MANY negative side effects:
- gaining weight
- increase risk of hypertension
- increase risk of diabetes
- etc

Zinc, Vitamin C and other supplements impact immune system too. However, you need so much of these vitamins and minerals for the rest of your body to work. So I go back to my original premise that you work with your doc (maybe bring up things you have read in research,etc) get tested and treat deficiencies/problem areas.

If you can get no sleep then this is a health care concern so talk to your doctor about ways you can help improve sleep ie C-PAP, treating bladder spams with meds, getting enough amino acids, nutrients to make melatonin which EVERYONE HAS TO DO to trigger sleep.

Best wishes to all,
EP

Sorry Epagain,

I didn't mean to offend. I am just trying to learn here as much as anyone. I read the warnings and try to follow them. My neuro doc did tell me to avoid echinacea and melatonin and also the other sleep supplement (I can't think of its name). All I can say is I am just adding my 2 cents like everyone else.

Again, I am sorry if I offended. Definitely did not mean to do that. Hope nobody is offended by anything I say here. It is only my opinion and only my opinion. Please just take me at face value and take it or leave it. I am as passionate as you are about all this. Thanks in advance for forgiving me for any missteps on my part.

I forgot, one other thing, I had a complete physical this past fall and all my levels were good. My vitamin D was good and all my tests were excellent. So I must be doing something right.

ezone-

Sorry if you thought I was offended. I was REiterating that I am not a doc and talk to one to find out what applies to you. Sigh

I guess my point is that you HAVE To make melatonin to sleep. If you do not sleep there are many neg side effects that have been well documented. Some may or may not take melatonin but you have to make it. The whole reason I wrote " If you can get no sleep then this is a health care concern so talk to your doctor about ways you can help improve sleep ie C-PAP, treating bladder spams with meds, getting enough amino acids, nutrients to make melatonin which EVERYONE HAS TO DO to trigger sleep. "

I also wrote about zinc and Vitamin C. The thing is you do NEED so much of these nutrients. The issue is BALANCE. So AGAIN if you feel this info applies to you go to your doc and ask to be tested. The medical professional may not want you taking excess amounts but if you are DEFICIENT this can cause many negative side effects.

I guess you have to look at it like steroids. Steroids are used to reduce inflammation that at times can cause lasting problems to vision etc so you treat it with steroids. HOWEVER, steroids if used in too high a dose too many times can case liver, eye, bone, skin damage etc. This is a TREATMENT for the disease that causes these well researched side effects.

You have to get tested for things that apply and then find a balance for yourself. Some people with MS have burnt out immune systems.

So summation you need to be tested to determine what YOU need in appropriate doses or don't need.

Sorry if I offended you,
EP

PS
ezone did you have your LA and GLA, oleic acid tested? If so what was you number on the normal scale?

My hubby has had many things tested over the years. Some of what was found to be low were MANY fats, vitamin D (we are finally getting it up but it has taken years) & certain hormones.

He takes a multi-vitamin with B vitamins, D, C, zinc, magnesium, many other minerals and vitamins and on this has so far healthy levels other than the fats and what needs fat to be stored (vit D) and certain hormones. After ADDING supplements and getting rid of much gluten he has NOT went backward in symptoms in over 5 1/2 years. This compared to when he had gluten and no supplements and relapsed every 3 months.

Note along the way (3-4 times) we have had nutrient levels tested to make sure we were addressing deficiencies/insufficiencies withOUT overdosing these areas. We got him tested to try to get him more BALANCED.

Best wishes to all in working with their docs for better health.
EP

Hey, you guys are totally messing with my head ;-)
No bananas??? I eat 1-2 bananas every day. i thought potassium was important for liver function?? (I have also taken extra potassium supplement in the past).
And melatonin is bad?? My immune system is "very poor" and my alternative MD wants me to take melatonin to improve sleep and help immune system.
(Hmmm. I treat my MS by beefing up my immune system and not shutting it down. Seems to work. hmmmm)

ezone:

Since I've had major sleep problems, I take a little melatonin and it helps immensely. Many of us older folks are deficient in seratonin and melatonin, so perhaps a small amount of melatonin just re-establishes a normal level.

Doing the google search gives pop-press references, but no scientific papers. However a PubMed search for "melatonin multiple sclerosis" points out that low melatonin levels in MS patients occur alongside psycho problems, but I couldn't find any mention of safety issues.

I think that sometimes when the mention of "immune system stimulation" occurs, people conclude that it's harmful to autoimmune diseases without taking a look at which part of the immune system is involved. If MS is worsened by T-cell inflammation, then that might let the remainder of the innate immune system, the humoral system, and the replication-control (only sometimes referred to as part of the immune system) system off the hook.

The relevent links in the Wikipedia article were all dead, but it would be good to read some scientific articles explaining the details of the damage caused by melatonin.

Reply #13 Tonemor

Potassium is not bad for you.

ezone is pointing out the reason why drugs such as 4-AP etc are being looked at with MS. It does nothing for the myelin. What it goes to is function of the nerve impulse which relies on sodium (Na) and Potassium (K). You need a road (here myelin road is damaged) and cars to send a message to point B. Plus so many blue cars(potassium) and red cars ( Sodium) to send the message traveling down different roads (nerves). This is over simplified.

English - If your engine is half shot you want to make sure you have enough oil and coolant. It will not fix the engine but you don't want to further reduce engine performance with not enough fluids.

So a drug was used to block potassium in an effort to see if this would improve signaling to nerves with damaged myelin. SO if you were taking sometime like 4-AP (Potassium blocker) you counteract it with more potassium.

If you are NOT taking one of these potassium blockers and your doctor finds you to be low on potassium you should talk to them about taking more potassium to bring it up to healthy levels. As too LOW a level of potassium can also adversely affect nerve signals. My husband had slightly better function with a little more potassium vs blocking it. Speak to your doctor to find out what is best for you.

Best wishes,
EP

PS If you don't know about research and basic Physiology how can you start a discussion with your doc? Thus this is the reason I mention info in these posts. So you can do your research and see what applies to you and mention what you feel is appropriate to your doctor.