"Now, that's all another big problem, because if he won't even start with his resentments, and just ignores them, cuz he hates to discuss your take on things."

I really don't know whether he is harboring any resentments right now or not. Maybe there really hasn't been anything big enough for him to address. I can't say because I don't really have anything to compare it to since he obviously kept things to himself before.

Of course, if I sat here and made a list, I could make my H look pretty bad, too. All those things he brought up after the fact may have been significant enough to remember, but not big enough to end a marriage for...until there was this bimbo...

Bottom line is I have needs that are important for me to move forward with my H that aren't being met. I'm spelling it out for him. I think I just need to start trusting myself more...that if something is still nagging at me, then I'm probably not off-base in being upset about it and bringing it up, no matter what he says.

Natty, I totally agree:
You should start trusting yourself more, and believe if it's nagging you, then it's for a damned good reason! You are smart, dedicated, and know what you want, need, and deserve.

Now the million dollar question is how do ya get it?
How does one get a man who's rather reserved in talking and sharing stuff, to open up more???? Maybe a post about this would help??? I know y ou'd get some interesting input from a lot of folks here: Znz, State, LStecker, VacaBaby (similar situation), and a host of other good folks would probably give ya tips. Maybe a few men could help out, like Cole50, Blind, the Rule, and a few others.
What would it hurt?

Forgot a bunch of people, sorry, but one that comes to mind is ImDealing!

Blonde-

The following is only a response to your question, not so much a recommendation in Natty's situation.

Speaking in very general terms.......us men are NOT good communicators. Some are worse than others. Not sure of the components (pride, ego), but I think this is very very core. To put this another way...it's not a trend....it's been like this since the dawn of time.

My friends and I often complain to one another about this dynamic. We unanimously feel bombarded with questions, schedules, and a need to give attention. This issue seems to continue until divorce, or death do us part.. Of course, I am referring to life in general....not so much affair reconciliation.

There are a few ways to handle this situation.....2 come to mind:

1.) Addressing it. This takes Both working toward the same goal. One simply wont cut it. Both need to understand how the other ticks and put forth efforts to resolving it. Empathy and tenacity will be necessary as this dynamic is fluid and ever changing.

2.) Acceptance. Decide whether or not the lack of communication is hindering your relationship and to what extent. Does it affect finances, the children's well-being, etc. If its not beyond the pale, acceptance is a consideration.

I'm certain that #1 is the preferred option, as many cite a lack of communication to be a major affair contributor. So....how do u get your partner to be an active and willing participant in addressing this......I don't know. Personally, I would rather communicate less rather than more.

I think we are all in agreement that overall men aren't the best communicators. And I think what Blind says about options makes good sense.

I think the heart of the issue for Natty is that her H wants her to practice the second option Blind listed when she needs him to practice the 1st.

This even isn't about communication at this point....its about the effort.

State "This even isn't about communication at this point....its about the effort." Truer words rarely spoken! My H is working so hard on getting in touch with his emotions and communicating them to me, either in word or deed. We both get very frustrated at times. What seems to be a no-brainer to me is completely hidden from him. BUT, he IS working and that, in and of itself, shows he wants it as badly as I do.

Natty, I hear you loud and clear. He's not giving the effort you so badly need him to give. Now the question is, how do you communicate that to him without him getting defensive and shutting down (like my H does as you know)? I so wish I had an answer to that question. Hmmm, maybe I'll ask my H for you. Your H and mine sound a lot alike! Seriously, if he has some insight that you might find useful, I'll let you know. He usually is happy to lend his opinion when I ask him...especially if it's not about him for once, lol.

Z, that would be very interesting to me, indeed. Ask away ;)

I have been away for awhile dealing with some family stuff. I have been reading here for about a week and I just can't help but respond to this post. I don't know that I have anything different to say than most people here; in fact I feel almost exactly same as many.

There were a few things brought up that struck a nerve and I wanted to respond.

Someone commented about why we feel the need to talk about feelings, discuss everything on our minds after the affair. Here is my answer...so many of us were told that there were problems before our spouse had an affair. They claimed a lack of communication, a feeling that they couldn't talk to us, other problems that most of us were not aware of; some of us were, but didn't know how to address them. So now that we are supposed to be on the road to rebuilding doesn't it only make sense that we would work extra hard on communication to help keep us from ending up where we were before the affair? My H can't have it both ways and claim that lack of communication brought him to the point of having an affair, but now we don't need to communicate that much because it puts too much on him.

I have the same experience as many here who have husbands who are not emotional. They aren't overly romantic, they don't like to discuss their feelings, they aren't spontaneous, but during his affair he was all of those things for the OW. The whole act of the affair was romantic, spontaneous, and full of discussions about feelings; although he doesn't see it like that at all. I don't want to hear now that he isn't that kind of guy or that he isn't capable of it...he is.

I don't know how I feel about the core changes thing. Before my H's affair I would have to say that the core of a person cannot change, but not anymore. My H having this affair is so far off from the man I knew for over 15 years. He had to become someone different to do what he did and now what is left is a mix of the man I knew so long ago and the one he became to have the affair. Not sure how I feel about that man.

I do not believe that only you can create your happiness. There are things in life that you want for yourself, but many of them require interaction of others. If there is a problem with that interaction then your happiness is affected. This is why I am still here after 4 years of this crap. My happiness is my family and having someone to share my life with. I can leave my H, but there are no guarantees that I will find someone to share my life with and I lose my family. So I might leave one unhappy situation, but I head into another one. A divorce means that I have to give up my children part of the time and that would not make me happy at all. So I am left with trying to determine if the level of unhappiness I feel with my H is worse than the level of unhappiness I would feel being single again and not having my children 100% of the time. Not only that, but what about the kids? Is my happiness or the search for it worth disrupting theirs? My H did that to them already and it has caused irreparable damage in their relationships.

The last 5 years have been a long string of disasters, disappointments, and heartache. Each time I think that things can't get worse and they do. So knowing that a good attitude, looking on the bright side, and keeping your chin up does not make the bad stop and good things start happening...why should I assume that leaving my H will bring about good changes? I realize for some that it has and I am so glad that it has worked out for them, but I just don't know that I can make that leap of faith.

Natty, in a nutshell. My H is a lot like yours and I have spent the last few years unhappy too. There have been good moments here and there, but I am not who I was before the affair and I am not happy with the way things are with my H. I am trying and I feel much like you in that I feel that I am doing most of the trying. Intimacy is missing and his affair and how he handled it has destroyed the amazing friendship we once had. The affair is such a huge part of his life and my life and there are too many parts of it we can't/don't discuss which leaves that "connection" we once shared severed. We are still friends that care about each other, but that trust is gone and that feeling of safety is gone. I don't know what to do about it, but I do know that your expectations of your H are not out of line and you are not alone in how you feel.

so, then is comprimise the best option when it comes to a females need for open communication? If so then what would that comprimise be? For me I dont need him to bring up the subject, but just not avoid it or fall asleep when I do. I need questins answered and sometimes just to vent. I need to vent to him, not to slam him or point fingers but to be open about how I am feeling. He needs to understand that often times, when I least expect it, thoughts of the affair swirl through my head and I just need to talk them out and get questions answered. So do I continue to rely mainly on my friends for communicating my feelings? How much "listening" should he come up with to find that happy middle groung? I think it goes back for me to our marraige as it was before dd. I wanted him to hang out and laugh with me, listen to me and just plain ole be with me without sex being involved. That turned me on and the sex usualy followed. He wanted sex and when it was really good sex then afterwards he was more relaxed and willing to hang, laugh and listen. For me the sex was better when I got my needs fulfilled first. I feel we are still stuck in that but not just for sex. It involves our every day life. Men really are from mars and women really are from venus. I suppose that will never change.

So Natty asked me to relay what my very "enlightened" H had to say. Please people, do not bash him...he did the best he could. He agrees with me that each spouse is somewhat responsible to fulfill the other's needs. That's about all he had to say on that. As for what he thinks you should do Natty, here goes. He believes that your H came home because he loves you and he knew he was wrong...very wrong, but he did not necessarily want to do all the necessary repair work. Once you gave him the ultimatum that you did and did not back it up, your H then believed he had all the power and, quite frankly, did not have to do a thing. In my H's words, "He knew she wasn't going to go anywhere."

He said, at this point after 2 years of the same, you need to do whatever it is you have to to get yourself into a position where you can make an ultimatum and back it up with action. (Sounds a bit like the 180...no?). He said that only then, when you can get a lawyer and say to your H, "I asked you to do x,y,z to help me fix this relationship but you refuse, so now I've contacted my lawyer. You need to leave this house." He went on to say that if he refuses you call the police. He said the last thing a police officer wants is internal affairs down his back. Anyway, he strongly believes that, at this point, a huge show of power on your part is the only thing that will wake him up.

So that is life according to my H. I know it's extreme, but he's a man...NO OFFENSE guys! I know there are a lot of very sensitive guys here, so don't blast me please! Natty, it's up to you what you want to do with his opinion, but do keep in mind that our H's seem quite alike. Hugs.

Z, that was actually not at all what I was thinking you were gonna say. Interestingly enough, I do not disagree with your H. In fact, I had a similar discussion with another DS friend the other day. The position I find myself in now, however, I am nowhere near the point of being able to do that. So what I am left with is telling him, once again, what I need and where things are lacking. Because I don't know how to live in this marriage with him if I don't do SOMETHING, and clearly option B is not really an option.

So that wasn't really brutal to me at all. I think your H is pretty much right. But you don't have to tell him I said that ;)

Natty, "So that wasn't really brutal to me at all. I think your H is pretty much right. But you don't have to tell him I said that ;)" I am so relieved, both that you didn't think it was brutal and that I don't have to tell him you thought he was right! lol I know that "stuck" feeling you have. The question is...putting your H aside, what is it that you need to do to get unstuck?...and I'm not talking emotionally.

Here's a final thought, when I thought about going back to school to get my masters, I knew I had to go part time and the part time program was 4 years (even though I did it in 3 and a half). I thought to myself, "Four years? That's a LONG time!" Then I said to myself, "Self, four years are going to pass anyway, you might as well be working towards something." KWIM? Sending you girlpower support!

Yep, I know what you mean. If I can find a day in the near future that I can have off from babysitting, I'd like to go up to my university to talk to someone and find out what exactly I need to do to get my teacher certification back. I know it will require some courses, but I need to know how many and how much it will cost (because we truly do not have the money right now). I am also waffling between teaching or going back into office work. If I could find a part-time office job that works into our schedule, maybe I could do that AND get my cert back at the same time, and then I might know where I'd really like to end up.

Anyway, I guess the point still is that I am a ways away from being able to do anything from a position of power. But I don't know what other options that leaves me in the meantime.

Sounds like a plan is afoot! There are always loans...I know, not a great option, but an option nonetheless...

Well, I currently have the student loans I already had in deferment because we just can't afford the payments right now. So the thought of adding to that....UGH.