Well put, Cliff. :)

Very well stated, and I completely agree with you. I have also written a few journals on this subject from Sept 27, 07 and Oct 29, 07. I believe this NEEDS and HAS to be done, but when is the question.

The best reason I can think of is because it is the right thing to do.

Now, I never said bosses would automatically bestow more vacation time just because they now have the money to do so. Theyb are too well trained to whine about how deep they are in the red. That would be a separate hurdle -- but a much easier one to leap over once the healthcare one is crossed.

It also ties in with the whole concept of keeping people healthy and productive in order to benefit business.

I also never said looking better to other developed countries is a motivation to vote for such a thing. But it would be a serious perk once the hurdle has been crossed.

I think you are dreaming. If socialized medicine was so great -why do so many people travel to the US and pay cash for our healthcare services? It's because other countries have long waits and ration care more than we do. What we need is a not-for-profit system. I belive Mecicare and medicaid should be expanded and people that can't afford healthcare should have an easier access to join these programs. It seems that the only ones that can get Medicaid are non-US citizens. I am not predudice but stating a fact. Talk to your doctor and they will tell you. The money is in the system but it does not come down to the bedside where it is needed. Why? because this country accepts the philosophy that it is okay for CEO's to make millions and billions. We are in a healthcare professional shortage. Physicians and nurses are tired and can't take the abuse anymore. They can't take the rationing of care and the rationalization for denial of services. they can't take the lack of responsibility people do not take for paying their bills or caring for themselves. They can't take the abuse of from the patients who are upset that they are being denied care because their insurance company won't pay for their healthcare but rather want to keep the money to bonus the CEO's and pay dividends to the shareholders.

As for vacation time -if you can afford the time off -take it. Just know that someone has to pay the bills.

The problem with other countries is not that they have socialized medicine! They come here for exotic procedures that nobody offers or for speedier access to elective surgeries. One reason our healthcare is so overpriced in the USA is that we pour grillions of dollars into arcane research for treatments that hardly anyone needs. the rich in other countries are welcome to take advantage of that.

BTW Thatskath, you seem to be saying that Medicaid and Medicare are something OTHER than socialized medicine. That's exactly what they are.

I really like your note about the cost to corporate America. Do the insurance companies have so much pull that they don't have every other industry in this country crying foul? I don't understand why some people think that making sure everyone is insured is the answer to the health care crisis. Insurance is the PROBLEM with it.

I agree that insurance companies are the issue. We've already cracked down on drug companies. There are now affordable generic medicines for almost every ailment readily available to the general public. It's time to reform the insurance industry next - take the restraints off medicine - not place on more through socialization.

I can't agree more for a national healthcare plan, I work in healthcare as case manager and have to deal with insurance companies day in and out to try and provide patients with what htey need and you wouldn;t believe the crap they throw my way to keep pt's from getting what they need. For example, if a patient can walk 35 feet ( distance from a bed to bathroom) they can deny them for inpt rehab that they need even if they have no one at home to help them. Their reason that is a social issue not a mobility issue!! Some insurances don't cover rehab, home health or IV infusion at home. Guess what these people end up staying longer in the hospital, take up a bed that a more acute person could use and sujected to nosocomial infections but htey rather pay a hospital bill at 1,000 dollars a night for a room and board that is not including any other procedures instead of provide the cheaper alternative a lesser level of care, a patient at home recieving the home services they need. It just make no sense. Not to mention I have struggled with infertility for 3 yrs and have spent over 60,000 dollars out of pocket because in my state of MD if your place of business in self funded they are exempt to cover infertility. Some state have no coverage that is mandarory where other it is mandatory. I ask why is there such a diffrence state to state?? It shoud be the same regardless of where you live in the US.
Also Medicare and Medicaid are government healthcare programs but don't think just because you have this you haveou may coverage for things you may need like certain meds that drug companies are driving the price up and not all are covered under Medicare. I'm glad to see this forum..we need serious change in this country, no one in Finland and places like that have our problems.

I think a vat or fair or users tax that replaces income tax that we pay at the cash register instead of deducted out of our paychecks would cover this, and get the illegal immigrants working for cash under-the-table paying their fair share of tax to be in this country too.

Well, we've partially cracked down on drug companies. That job is far from complete. You know that website that tells you when a drug is due to go generic? One that I take was due in the third quarter of last year, and when I called the pharmacy to check, the phramacist said ruefully that the drug companies always file a last-minute lawsuit to keep the generic from coming out on time. Sure enough, I still have to pay $40 for 9 tablets.

I agree big time!!

Koolman: I could not agree more about taxing people at the cash register. Even pimps and heroin dealers have to eat, and the pimps tend to have fairly expensive taste in clothes. So tax 'em! It burns me up that lowlife can get away without paying taxes when retirees have to.

Those are some very positive attributes towards socializing health care -- but you need to be careful, because what you are talking about is not only healthcare, but completely converting the economy to socialization.
(ie: appealing to taxes, businesses, vacations, etc.)

I think centralizing our healthcare is becoming more and more a necessity because of unaffordable healthcare without insurance today.
However, at the same time, it NEEDS to be researched throroughly, as there are also serious drawbacks to most socialized healthcare systems.

For instance, wealthy Canadians sometimes come to the US for certain surguries, because they are either not available at all in Canada, or not available in time.

Have you asked any of them what percentage of their income goes to all these centralized conveniences? On average, MORE than we pay!! Closer to 50% than our average of 30%.
Here in the US, we have the convenience of getting a dental or mental health visit, either of which are considered "long wait" health care visists in this country, usually within a month, or at least two. In other socialized health care countries, the wait is usually at least two - six months. They are not allowed to pick and choose whom they want to see. Just like HMOs here. You are assigned a primary care provider, and you have to get a referral from them to see a specialist. Good luck if your provider doesn't happen to like you or have much experience in your particular health condition.

One of the reasons our health care system is so expensive, is because of the cutting edge medical research our country is doing. However contraversial, our nation leads other socialized countries in this area.

There are usually, at least in larger cities, health care options available to many people who don't have private insurance -- state HMO, low cost county health care, ERs, Individual health care provider financial assistance from large corporations as well as drug companies themselves, mental health, cancer, and other associations and large business donations, etc.

I am not trying to say these are all-encompassing or effecient, but they are available to many. who do not otherwise have healthcare.

No big business goes in the red because of ins. they make millions. The ins,big business and pharmatical companies is making money off us.