I am working on it. I too feel shame when around my foo. here is a link that I found. I read somewhere that said when being abused,the abuser is acting acting with no shame so the abused absorbs that shame. It still confusing to me how this shame process works but in some felt way it makes sense. I wish i could remember where i read that.

http://helpyourselftherapy.com/topics/shame.html

Thanks, Knee. In some way I feel it makes sense, too. Perhaps it's related to the hyper-vigilance.

I, too, am working on the shame on a day by day basis. In my case, it's become such a part of me that I can no longer even recognize it. Shame is simply me. Now I'm not talking about normal shame but rather what John Bradshaw in his book, "Healing the Shame That Binds You", calls "toxic shame". Normal shame says, "You MADE a mistake", while toxic shame says, "You ARE a mistake". Big difference.

One reason I can't be around my dad anymore is his constant shaming me. He said some smart remark about me getting disability and "working the system". It hurt, plain and simple, because I felt shame. I've felt shame my whole life for not being able to function like other people. If I was working the system, I wouldn't have gone to school while on disability the first time and I would have stayed on disability instead of working my butt off. I constantly go through the shame motions sitting here trying to get through my shit. Shouldn't I be doing something else? I then come to the realization that I must really work through this stuff this time, or there probably won't be another time. Good to see ya Charli.....................

Charli, that is what I was trying to say...."In my case, it's become such a part of me that I can no longer even recognize it."

I have a hard time recognizing it. My parents told me I was a mistake, so maybe that is making it a little difficult.

Working the system..HAHA. Yah, the system is so easy to work, hey? It's amazing you survived.

Hi Sam,

As a result of the sexual abuse I went through as a child, I became a sex addict, and sexual addiction is DEFINITELY a shame based disease. Every sex addict will have certain feelings and emotions which, for them, serve as triggers to act out in their addiction. For me, one of these was sadness. One day, when I was a very young boy, one of my little pets died, and I was sad about that, so I started to cry. My Dad told me to stop that. Boys don't cry, only sissies and girls cry. So, he shamed sadness for me. To this day, every time I feel sad, I get triggered. You see, sexual addiction is a way of numbing out or covering up those feelings and emotions that you don't want to look at or deal with. The rush of endorphins and neurotransmitters in the brain that you experience as a result of sexual activity is what the sex addict gets hooked on. In a sense, we're drug addicts, but we're addicted to our own brain chemistry.

I firmly believe that I was a sex addict by the time I was 7-years-old, and I didn't get into recovery until I was 37. So that's 30 years of addiction, and 30 years of dealing with toxic shame by resorting to sexual activity. I guess I just became numb to it over the years to the point that even now, I can't recognize it. I have no idea what shame feels like, but I do know what it feels like to be triggered. So, that's how I now recognize shame. Kind of a crazy way to work it, but as long as it works, I'm not going to knock it. And it is definitely working for me.

Thanks for sharing, Charlie. I think I will do the same. I really would like to put some boundaries on shame and try to see what it's like to exist without it. But since I know it so well and have had a long bout of living with it, I will just keep trying. That's all I can do. I don't find shame the hardest part to live with, by any means.

As huge as the english dictionary is, I think at times like this it is sometimes limited. I don't believe "shame" acurately describes what I sensed in your words. It sounds more like what you are feeling is a compilation of invasion, compromised privacy, being under seige and betrayal. Your abuser forced their way into what would be the utimate place of privacy in anyones life. Your Mind. I remember those feelings. It was like when I was around them, they were looking right into me, always looking for a way to control me. I too, confused it with shame. My senses were heightened around them and without missing a beat, I would become guarded and uncomfortable with who I was, around them. I learned to love "me" again and slowly felt those feelings lift from myself. Only ignorance, believes shame belongs to the victim. Shame is not something that belongs to any of us.

Wow. Well said, IClaimTheCross. I need time to absorb.

Yes well said iclaim...
hame is a hrad one for me.I was not only shamed by abuse but i was an unwanted child.My mother made everyone know about tha fact.She tried to abort me throughout her whole pregnancy and i was born terrified of her.She did not want to take care of me either...............Noone knew waht to do with me thoughout all my childhood it was like "who's gonna take care of her?"............Noone wanted to.So we had nannys who also did not want to...So all my childhood i was made to feel shame for even exisisting......Then when of course i was born with an attachment disorder and had it since birth day 0ne....
Noone understood it and i aws made to feel shame for that, my behaviours which was werid but is just like attachment toddlers have.
And there of just made to feel shame, for existing, for acting like i was acting, for ahving probs as a young child, young teen, you could not win with my family of narcissists that were too busy enjoying their life to bother with the youngest unwanted child in the family.

Then add that to being abused....So shame upon shame, molested by father, more shame.........And walla you got one screwed up individual who will probably die like that.

#8;
" Only ignorance, believes shame belongs to the victim. "

Molly (or any one for that matter), have you ever been blamed for your rape and molestation ? How about from a specialized rape and sexual abuse counselor in a closed door private session with them ??

At the risk of appearing like a bully, any takers ???

I'll argue to my last breath, the psychological industry in general and present day support services in particular are doing far more harm than good, and in most cases even more harm than the original trauma.

How about now, any takers ????

Tom S. in Tn.

Yup. I'll take this on.

Yes, I have been blamed. Blamed for getting raped at 11 years old. Put in the psychiatric ward for children. Apparently, things haven't changed in childrens psych ward for the last 20-some years. That is horrific to me. In Canada, psych wards are comparable to jails. Arguments could be made for them being worse than jails. So, my brain made the connection that boys who would pin me down and have sex with me had the power to get me taken away from all I knew. I'd better 'play' along or I'd be punished.

Not only was I labeled and made to feel as if I was the problem by the psychiatric industry, I was removed from all the safe places I had created. So if I didn't have PTSD from the abuse, I would have gotten it from that experience.

I was also blamed by peers. Called a slut, daily. That was the reason for the suicide attempt. To avoid having to go to school anymore. I guess it could be called bullying but I'd say it was more harassment and stalking. Notes in my locker, phone calls, and taunting words. No safe place.

Funny how kids are 'bullied' but adults are 'harassed'.

I guess I just have learned that it has all the power and I keep a safe distance. I refuse to accept any shaming or blaming labels and yet work within the industry. I have separated my current therapist from it. She also will advise me who is an 'idiot' as far as shrinks go, so I feel not so crazy in playing the game of charades in getting support.

I make choices. They can 'refer' me to things they think will fix my personality disorders, but I don't have to go. Those are the places they tend to send you before locking you up, I have found.

I have talked to a few survivors who have found decent therapists who played a positive role in improving their quality of life.

I was thinking about what those people say that the therapist was able to help with so you don't feel so excluded, Tom. One thing that arose was the calm voice to help talk down the overwhelm that hits.

I'll keep researching what has helped and try to pass that info along to you. The calm voice, you could get form guided audio. A soothing voice is the key. Since therapists don't hug (at least mine doesn't), you aren't missing out on any of the touch from parenting. You could get the voice though. Let me know if you are interested and I can send you some recommendations. I've used some and they really helped. Not fixed, but helped me relax somewhat.

@ #11 Tom, I am amazed that you would even ask that. In almost all abuse, incest and rape incidents, the blame is affixed to the victim. I've experienced everything from family to Dr's. that wanted to "fix" me, rather than become my advocate and punish my abusers. My permanent way out was to join the Military. Through that, I have had access to the best in the Mental Health field who not only work for the VA, but also private practice as well. There is, great help out there. All I can say is a person needs to trust their instincts. If your not finding what you need where it should be, you need to look elsewheres. The only one we owe anything to, is ourselves. My hyper-awareness lets me know when a Dr is not there for my benefit. For all I know, that Dr. could be an abuser in his or her, own home, validating themself by holding me back. Likewise, I can spot someone I can trust, just as easily. As Samadian eluded to, your best source of reference is from someone who has been through it, not some clueless friend or Medical corporation.

#12:
' Yes, I have been blamed. Blamed for getting raped at 11 years old '

By who Sam? What does your T say? She does not blame you does she?
I understand the bully thing, but do you ever feel like you need a bigger audience? This would be good for the forums, and one I can think of in particular where the all female quorum have extremely limited perspective.

' Those are the places they tend to send you before locking you up, I have found. '

Why play this game? I don't know about you, but I prefer freedom.

' I have talked to a few survivors who have found decent therapists who played a positive role in improving their quality of life. '

I've tried, believe me, but being an older male seeking emotional support services in a female predominant industry run exclusively for females has only added fuel to the anger and despondency fires.
I just don't have the stamina for their abuse anymore.

' Since therapists don't hug (at least mine doesn't), you aren't missing out on any of the touch from parenting. '

Practically everyone I ever saw hugged the client as (she) left. One had a hug thing and patted me on my wallet on day. I went ballistic and came home and told Jannie. She said the woman probably made a mistake, or couldn't resist, while she patted my ass.
Another hugged every client except the minority male, me. I confronted her about it one day and I asked why she did this. She replied to benefit her patients, but maybe I did not need this.
When I asked why and what made me different, she gritted her teeth and reached from the farthest distance she could reach to embrace me.
I think that confrontation and bringing her to become an equal with me was a milestone in her life.

As always, I look forward to all your recommendations Samantha. It's knowing you care enough to advocate for me is what matters the most for me though. That human quality can not be bought.
Tom

#13;
Holy Cow Molly! VA! You can't be serious............... :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/16/us/politics/16hasan.html

At any rate, I was raped by a social worker in 1973 when I was 17.
I've seen over 30 practitioners at every level from unlicensed rape crisis counselors (the absolute worse) to board cert'd MD psychiatric fellows, in the years since.
Take a moment and consider what I'm confronted by as a 55 y/o male facing a female predominant industry run exclusively for females, not battle fatigued GI's.
Now tell me where the public sympathy lies for what demographic group. And I'll bet females get psychiatric preference in the military as well as VA.

Side note: my so called illigit father was social work chief at a regional VA (ret) and his wife is a VA clinic RN (ret). My second RN job was with VA.

I didn't start on this odessy yesterday. Sadly, I just don't have the stamina to tolerate the abuse from these maladjusted individuals, much of which like you just described, trying to locate the one person with enough human dignity left to choose to advocate for me, a 55 y/o male, as a victim of sexual assault by one of their own, a social worker.

Let another budget cycle or 2 go through. The economy will show you who cares about client mental health and who was chasing the public fund $$$ for their own cause.

Unrelated, but I have to bring this up;

" The only one we owe anything to, is ourselves. "

Incorrect. The world is not all about us.
If anyone, it's more about the kids we produced, but defiantly not us.

The evidence of an individuals degree of adjustment and well being is how much they are able to give of them self and contribute to others. Tom S. in Tn.