The Marriage Encounter type programs are most definitely NOT for marriages in trouble. They are even rough sometimes for those that aren't! I'm not a big fan of marriage counseling (went for awhile with first husband, hated it because it was a group thing and I didn't feel comfortable with the counselor) so this may color my feelings. The guy I am sort of seeing right now, not enough to call him my S/O yet, was in counseling with his first wife for 10 years! I asked him why and he said well, the first couple of years were okay and they made some progress, the last ones were basically her dancing all around the issues, but he felt like he made a lot of progress with his *stuff.* He is the child of two alcoholics so I know he had a lot of *stuff*!

You would think people would go to counseling before marraige. The reason they dont is that Love covers a multitude of sins. Learn to Love again.

(Mr. Different Drummer Here.)

If they don't want to make the effort, nothing will bring them back.

Sorry, kinda down today.

I would have embraced any sort of help...but we never even got that far. He gave up on us, and never even tried or considered any outside help or intervention...You cannot force them to go with you for help., they have to want to do it and be interested in making the necessary changes, and making the necessary efforts. If they go and give up, or don't want to go at all indicates the lack of motivation on their part to make the marriage/relationship work... What I did, and am still doing is going for counselling for myself. If you go for counselling, perhaps one day he will be willing to join you...you have nothing to lose.

I'm really surprised that no one hear as tried any of these, in particular something like Marriage Fitness / Boot camp; Relationship Builders etc. (Yes I know that Marriage Encounters is Not for marriages in trouble) Unfortunately, I didn't find these types of programs until it was too late. Well maybe since no one here has gone through it - maybe they are effective. I could defintely not go back with stbx or go into another marriage without counseling first. We went into the marriage with too many unresolved issues...because we were so in love (even at age 50), and assumed that we would work them out,but never did. And we knew each other 2-1/2 years before we married, and lived together for 1-1/2 years before we married. Not smart on our part. Too bad, so sad.

I've never head of any of those except for Marriage Encounter. We went 100 years ago. Just like everything else, he never followed thru. Unfortunately, it takes both people to be willing to put forth the effort.

Juli, the words that jumped out at me were "...when he drinks..." Mine drinks, but is a confirmed non-alcoholic & is never responsible for anything he perceives to be negative. He talked the talk, but didn't walk the walk. So, after 39 years, many tries at counseling, two interventions and him throwing around the "D" word one time too many, I said enough is enough.

I would have done anything to make it work and I did. But, one person making changes wasn't enough to make our marriage work.

Yes, alcohol is part of this problem. He doesn't drink nightly, maybe one or two nights a week (now - it used to be nightly), but when he does start drinking, he drinks a lot. can't stop after one or two. Therapist has said, though he doesn't quite fit an "addict" there is definitely abuse. But also since the therapist said that he's now trying to hide his drinking - puting vodka into juice bottles, keeping bottles in his car (dumb - open bottle duh) so he always has a stash. Yes, he has issues - I think he was fringing on like a mid-life crisis or something, and our problems the last 7 months has pushed him over the edge. I also think he is depressed. Not just sad, but depressed. If I mention that he gets upset.

I do think had I found some of these Marriage Rescue programs earlier, I think it might have stopped this whole thing from escalating. In June he was "committed and willing" to work out our issues, and we were making slow progress, then on one of his drinking episode he did something really stupid, - which I got over and forgived, but then just like it was like a switch was flipped, and he had one foot out the door, and became as cold as ice. I am not taking blame for anything but saying - had I found them earlier.... I just think if we would have gone the route of marriage rescues as opposed to counseling or maybe with counseling, be might have taken a different path. But then maybe not. I guess we'll never know.

Hi! Just my 2 cents on therapy. I haven't done any of the programs you mentioned, but I did do counseling.

With my 1st wife, I was the in the "dumper" role. She begged me to go to counseling. I resisted, but eventually gave in. We went to one session. While the therapist did point out my mistakes, she was equally fair in pointing out her's. The plan was to do some solo sessions, then bring us back together.

The problem was, my ex wasn't willing to face what SHE'D done wrong. I think she expected the therapist to console her and perhaps join her in burning me tied to a stake.

When HER issues were brought out, she vowed to never go back.

With my current wife, I'm now in the role of "dumpee." I've suggested counseling several times. She refuses to go.

All of us could've benefited from counseling. I think it's just easier for people to displace blame rather than accept responsibility. If he won't go, and commit to going, it's not a good sign. :(

Wow, I can really relate with the hiding the drinking. My ex did that for over 20 years. I found bottles in every imaginable & uninmaginable place! He doesn't fit the typical alcoholic profile & was highly functioning. But none the less, he drank since his teens & it has affected his thinking processes severely. He lied (& continues to lie) about everything since before we were married. I didn't realize it until much later.

He was very manipulative and pretended to be willing to work at the various therapies, but never followed thru for more than a week - NEVER. I believe he has been depressed most of his life & I think he drinks to numb himself - I just don't know why. He was never very communicative.

They say there comes a point where the alcoholic/substance abuse switch is flipped to on & can't be reversed. I believe my ex's switch was flipped a long time ago. They also say It's not how much one drinks, but why. And, that alcohol is 10% & the related behavior is 90% of the problem. But one can't change the behavior until one rids themself of the alcohol. It certainly seems true w/my ex.

All I know for sure is that he lied and manipulated for so long that I would never be able to trust him - ever. So very sad...

Wistful your description of you X is sounding really close to mine. Lies that didn't come out until after we were married, like he was married 3 times before me, not twice - found that out the day after our wedding, plus tons more. He is fully functional, but it so obvious that the alcohol is a problem. stbx could never open up to me unless it was 100% like I love you a million times a day, and lots of good things, but could never open up with any pain. Then when I saw him starting to drink more heavily, he would go into emotional rages on any one and every one who had done him wrong. And believe me EVERYONE did him wrong, he no responsibility for anything (sarcasim). Once he went through his list of people to blame for messing up his, life then he started turning on me. Lots of lies, suspecious activities (he is passive aggressive - so nothing was going on, but he knew how to push my buttons - so manipulation), but never stopped with the I love yous. Of course now that we are splitting, it is "I was only going through the motions" So there is still no truth, was he lying before? or is he lying now? The truth will never be known, though I suspect the lying is now and he's cornered himself in. And now this chapter will be all my fault, he wasn't responsible. The sad thing is, I do believe he is such a good person, but has never done any self awareness work and never resolved any of his issues in his life, and now the alcohol has really brought him to the floor (emotionally). But like I said I believe he is a good person, but without lots of therapy, which 2 therapists have already told him in the last 6 months, I don't think there is any hope for us. I just still wonder, if we had taken a different approach earlier, might things have been different, or was this just pre-destined.

We went to counseling several times over the 23 years - the first time the counselor basically told my stbx he needed to change some things, second time the counselor said he needed to change some things...third time...this is all very deja-vu, I'm not saying I am perfect but I did work at it and it takes both, not just one. Since we have seperated I have been reading some books, I believe they help, but then again...if he doesn't do anything then it won't help. I do hope that reading these books will help me in any future relationships though.

juli..... (((hugs))) I could have written your last post myself. Hang in there...

we went to marriage builders and stayed half a day...
I will say BOTH people haev to WANT To save things though...

Juli, we have been living parallel lives. Everything you said is true for me as well. If any of you met my ex you would think I am totally nuts for letting such a "great guy go". No one saw him when he was literally looking for something to be mad at. No one ever saw the many times every day that he misunderstood what I said and then treated me accordingly. He would ignore my feedback to correct what he thought he heard (his most frequently used expression was "in my mind...). Even if I had misspoken - which I do - he wouldn't give me the opportunity to correct myself. His philosophy was "I don't get mad, I get even."

Nothing ever got resolved he wouldnt even agree to disagree. Instead he would bring up some stupid thing in order to draw attention away from the issue at hand and we would get so far off track, I would end up so confused I couldnt remember what I said. For years I thought I was crazy. Just found out recently that this is a common alcoholic behavior. Two therapists told me he has many traits of a narcissistic sociopath.

He was very thoughtful remembers anniversaries & birthdays. He goes out of his way to help others. Like your stbx Juli, my ex is not a bad person, per se. I don't want to believe his behavior is intentional. This is partially what made it so hard to leave. He never failed to tell me many times a day how much he loved me. The only problem was his actions didn't match his words.

Unless he stopped drinking and wanted to change, no amount of therapy or other help would have ever worked - not even if it happened 30 years ago. I'm not sure how I feel about predestination. I just know that God allows things to happen and he gave us the capacity to reason. We make choices every day. I've come to loathe the oft-used excuse "I didn't have a choice." We always have a choice. They might be sucky ones, but we always have a choice. He refused to share information & make joint decisions. But somehow everything he did, he did for me, whether I wanted/needed it or not.

I finally got to where I didnt believe the I dont drink that much. It was only one drink or half a drink and not every day. Recently, I asked if he was having a drink. He said no and actually handed me the glass to taste. I didnt have to, it reeked of Jack. How much deeper in denial could he be????

I am just now coming to accept that he loved me in the only way he could - just not the way I wanted, needed or deserved. And I made the choice to leave. I'm making the choice to no longer look back. 39 years of my life is more than enough.