Alcoholism Support Group
Alcoholism is the continued consumption of alcoholic beverages, even when it is negatively affecting your health, work, relationships and life. If you think alcohol is causing you to lose control, it's time to seek help. Our group is a safe place to vent, check in, get back up if you fall, and reach sobriety.
i remember when i came back to aa in 2001 someone told me that i had chosen to take that drink. to me it just possed me off but made me feel really bad also. later after going thru the steps and recovering i discovered in the Big book that it says that all alcoholics have lost the power of choice when it comes to the first drink. it goes on to say our so called will power wont be effective in preventing me from taking that drink. I will not be able to bring into the mind why i shouldnt drink. no matter how bad it was in my past if im alcoholic i will be doomed to drink again.
this is from chap 2 in the BB
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove.
The alcoholic may say to himself in the most casual way, "It won't burn me this time, so here's how!" Or perhaps he doesn't think at all. How often have some of us begun to drink in this nonchalant way, and after the third or fourth, pounded on the bar and said to ourselves, "For God's sake, how did I ever get started again?" Only to have that thought supplanted by "Well, I'll stop with the sixth drink." Or "What's the use anyhow?"
When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or to permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcohoholics throughout history. But for the grace of God, there would have been thousands more convincing demonstrations. So many want to stop but cannot.
this confirmed for me why without a spiritual solution i always went back to the booze. i would always go back cause i had lost the power of choice. lack of power that was my problem. the 12 steps allowed me to awake to the presence of god that is already in me. and by seeking that power daily thru prayer meditation and steps 10 thru 12 i am assured to be sober every day.
I hope this helps anyone tht struggles
Dave
this is from chap 2 in the BB
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The almost certain consequences that follow taking even a glass of beer do not crowd into the mind to deter us. If these thoughts occur, they are hazy and readily supplanted with the old threadbare idea that this time we shall handle ourselves like other people. There is a complete failure of the kind of defense that keeps one from putting his hand on a hot stove.
The alcoholic may say to himself in the most casual way, "It won't burn me this time, so here's how!" Or perhaps he doesn't think at all. How often have some of us begun to drink in this nonchalant way, and after the third or fourth, pounded on the bar and said to ourselves, "For God's sake, how did I ever get started again?" Only to have that thought supplanted by "Well, I'll stop with the sixth drink." Or "What's the use anyhow?"
When this sort of thinking is fully established in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he has probably placed himself beyond human aid, and unless locked up, may die or to permanently insane. These stark and ugly facts have been confirmed by legions of alcohoholics throughout history. But for the grace of God, there would have been thousands more convincing demonstrations. So many want to stop but cannot.
this confirmed for me why without a spiritual solution i always went back to the booze. i would always go back cause i had lost the power of choice. lack of power that was my problem. the 12 steps allowed me to awake to the presence of god that is already in me. and by seeking that power daily thru prayer meditation and steps 10 thru 12 i am assured to be sober every day.
I hope this helps anyone tht struggles
Dave
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I really had no real answer to why i relapsed. Mostly it was because my emotional nature was pretty unbearable at certain times and I sought relief, but that didn't explain why i relapsed when life was pretty good I was I feeling ok.
What Bill and the first 100 describe in the big book in that passage on page 24 was a double edged sword for me when i first read it.
It did explain why I kept relapsing but I couldn't understand about this power of choice thingy. I mean surely I had chosen to drink of my own free will?
What helped me understand and finally admit my unmanageability was this:
1) Why did I chose to drink when I was in full possession of the facts of where it would lead?
2) I then saw the words - insanely trivial excuse, appauling lack of perspective, lack of proportion, and most importantly for me "AT CERTAIN TIMES" (ie not all the time cos sometimes I could resist off my own power - i had months of dryness to prove that).
Admitting that my 'decision/choice' was based on defective thinking and believing a lie was what kick started my recovery - i no longer had to depend on my will-power, high resolve and ego to stay sober.
What a bloody relief, the battle was weighing so heavy on my soul already in tatters.
It wasn't nice to admit that this defective thinking was a form of insanity, but there we go, change can be painful.
I have not been indoctrinated or forced to take on anyone else's beliefs.
What i believe now about my alcoholism and the solution I have found to it is based on my own experience.
I believe there are may people who are not powerless over alcohol and therefore different routes to change may be more appropriate for them.
I however know that I was powerless and know the solution that I have found is the right one for me because it is the only one that, once I was willing to accept it, has worked for me.
The way I found was through the 12 steps and they have worked wonderfully for me for a long time. There are many people who stop drinking by means other than the 12 steps, I have seen them myself, but because the Big Book fit my experience so closely I used the steps.
This in itself suggests that if I continue to utilize the recovery maintenance outlined and continue to stay connected with my HP I have regained the GOD GIVEN ability to make choices and say NO to alcohol. IF I CHOOSE to take that first drink and continue I can and WILL lose that power of choice. I am NOT afraid of alcohol. I respect it. God did not gives us a Spirit of fear but of POWER and of love and of a sound mind.
Every time this comes up I wonder if we are arguing over semantics or just personal ideology. Hard to tell. If I have the choice to believe the BB over the Bible and GOD's word I personally will choose the Bible every time. I prefer to meld them together, Of course that is what works for ME and it's not for me to say what you should believe. To each his/her own.
Just as science has progressed in many areas, they're continually making advances in understanding addictions and dependency. The BB is not a text of facts. Bill made his own definition of what an alkie is but it's only based on his experience back then. It's great he came up with a program that works for people but he can't be held as the only authority who gets to define this problem forever. Society advances, discoveries are made. It's a little antiquated to think one man's writing is the end all/be all.
I do have a question for those who claim there's no other way and that the "facts" show this. Can you tell me where people who were hardcore alcoholics by any definition, go to report their sobriety? Is there a place that keeps this statistic? This is a major problem with the stats of any group or report because it's so selective. It's faulty for the scientific community as well as any particular program because you don't go clock in somewhere when you develop the problem and clock out when you're cured. Rehabs can only base their findings on as many folks as they can keep up with after they leave. Some may become homeless and die, some may find a new way of life and never look back.
There's also still a lot of relapse among people who do work the program and it's not a cure all. Sure, the people it works for work the program but that doesn't mean that everyone who works the program stops drinking.
Some here have said they've never heard of anyone who has used anything but a 12-step to be sober (and I'm referring to healthy individuals, not people still living miserably without addressing what made them drink)but I know a few personally and few here at DS (one whose story is truly inspirational). I think it's easy to say there aren't any if you choose to believe there's no other way - therefore they must not exist or they weren't real alkies or they aren't really sober.
Jim, as a person who has worked with so many in this situation - what have you seen?
Just a small point though - Jim is NOT an AA counselor although of course he does work in the field.
I do not entirely agree with the way Jim understands the promises in Step 10 for him.
The issue of choice is a non-issue for me because I am never called upon to make a choice - this is what 'recovered' means. If there is a time when I am confronted with a situation where a choice becomes necessary I MAY be able to say 'no' I may not; the Big Book tells us that our willpower in such situations is PRACTICALLY non-existent.
My point of view, which I feel is supported by my experience and the Big Book is that if I am faced with a choice, it means that I am no longer doing what i need to do in order to stay spiritually fit and that means that suddenly, I am having to make a choice that I could never make before because I could NEVER choose not to drink.
There are of course those whose experience is different and who can argue with that? This is just mine for what it's worth!
Lyn
Now... if I don't get my way I will throw a hissy fit and post crap all day long so I can have attention and convince you ALL I am just one more crazy SOB. Better yet I will leave DS all together and rob you all of my infinite wisdom. So there. :oP
When people have lack of something to say, they say little or nothing. Perhaps you should try it...
Your comments about nodp and his employment is ignorant.