There are a lot of people in this support group.A lot of different opinions,attitudes and outlooks.A lot of us are alcoholics,with the egos and sensitivities that are characteristic of alcoholics.We ain't always gonna agree.That's a simple fact.I don't care much for some threads that are posted for no other purpose than to fire up a debate or an argument.That serves no good purpose,does nothing to help anybody get/stay sober.The real purpose of this group is to help each other,not allow our egos to run amok.I have learned that fighting anything is not good for my sobriety.Thanks for bringing this up,Cateyes.

I know what you mean. I think it is an intensely subjective thing. When we talk about something in a civil manner, and for the sake of discovery, argue a point, it can be enlightening and interesting to hear opposing views.

But to fight for the sake of fighting-well, it can be a bit interesting to listen to what is motivating the person to that level of anger, but it is dangerous to be so vicious when many are so vulnerable here.

Hard to say. I enjoy a good debate but not at the sake of someone getting hurt.

People get passionate about things, me I just stay sober one day at a time, and learning that I can only control me helped my life a hell of alot, made it simpler and easier.Debates will happen, you choose what to take in and what not too, just take in the healthy stuff and leave the rest. Take care and be at peace with oneself is the best gift you can have.

You are right about the respect part.

We need to respect others. But what exactly does that mean. What should be the rules when engaging in a debate?

Pointing fingers, name calling, using words like cult, brainwashing, dry drunks...are not all of these tainted with disrespect. There are probably more but would not any of these be taken as assault?

I think that respect can be achieved by everyone acting like adults...unfortunately we are alcoholics with varying degrees of maturity.

Can we simply state our experiences and what has helped. Being respectful of those with less maturity without being sucked into the backward spiral ourselves. I think it is probably a hard thing to get but definately worth striving for.

Progress not Perfection
Thanks for the post....thinking material
Ree

Sobernfree and Mike it sounds like you two are saying being peaceful and "acceptance" and letting it go is more healthy for you two rather than some of the "arguing that goes on here." Well said...

KK I totally agree, debate and healthy communication of ideas can be inspiring and growth. However the presentation style or "agenda" that one is coming from may make it unhealthy.

I'll repeat something I posted recently; This site was my first experience with AAers, but I soon learned that it's not the "GROUP AA" but some of the "PERSONALITIES" because I found some to be abrasive. I will back up and say that some of those hard core AAers who didn't "sugar coat it for me" (like AAguru and Bolean) helped me the most.

So then my next question is... during these debates should one address the "person" or the "behavior" of that person instead of defending or attacking thier beliefs? Make this about ones presentation without muddling it with one treatment? "Getting to root issue", and that not always being a difference in treatment?

Yeap Ree... just my thinking... do we deal with the "behavior/personality" and keep it "clean/clear"?

I said it before and I'll say it again...instead of talking badly about one program to another, why not tell of what worked in the program you work to stay sober. It does get discouraging and sometimes makes me angry when someone talks badly about the program that saved my life. I do feed into it at times also. Some are sicker than other and I am taught to pray for those people. Thy will be done....

Well..T I think you are definately on to something...Behaviors/personalities...not the individual...Healthy communication.. "You" words and statements are iffy. "I" statements are much less threatening.

Debate is always good, argument, accusation and name-calling are not. It's not debate that is the problem - it is the content of, and manner in which we debate.

Those of us in AA will (hopefully) find this familiar: 'And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone - even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned.' - from the 10th step promises, page 84 Big Book

I had a long-- er, ah-- discussion in private messages and emails last summer with a former member of this group about whether there's any difference between indifference (which he also called apathy) and detachment with love. He insisted there's no valid distinction at all, that "carrying the message" meant crusading and browbeating other alcoholics into submission, and that detachment is nothing but a lazy man's excuse.

Now I disagree with that passionately, and consequently I wasn't about to roll over and go along with his efforts to boss people around, myself included. One of the social skills I've had to learn work on in recovery is the ability to be patient and tolerant with folks who see impatience and intolerance as virtues. I can't remember ever wining an argument about it, but I've outlasted most of 'em so far.

I am learning to say "in my humble opinion." I can quote everything that has helped me in 24 years of AA sobriety, but beyond my experience, strength and hope: It is all "in my humble opinion." The Big Book also says that AA is not for everyone and that it can not help everyone. I do not feel good about the abuse of anyone at this site. In my humble opinion it is easier to lighten up and laugh.

ty cat
very insightful post. I only know what my exp is. this is my 4th time in AA . my first time sober was from 92 to 95 2 1/2 yrs sober. I got drunk till nov of 95 and came back to aa. that time i got sober for 4 1/2 yrs. something happened that time. I went from one sponsor to the next. When i would get a new sponsor i would trash talk the other ones who helped me. my 3rd time in AA i only stayed for one week and i remember sitting at a begginer table and saying to my self this time i will stay sober the rest of my life or atleast ill stay sober for 10yrs. 2 days later we went after work to a bar. It was hot i didnt want to drink and had no money. my coworkers knew i was trying to get sober and said they would only buy me a pepsi. I stood in front of the bar tender and out of my mouth came f it give me a bud wieser. i began to drink and have really bad stuff happend till it almost killed me. By the way i do have a point in all this. When I got back to aa on 07 21 2001 I was dying and willing to do any thing anything to not have to live like that. I was taken right thru the 12 steps out of the BB and i recovered. When my first sponsor came up to me when i was about a yr sober he informed me i needed to find another sponsor. crushed thinkin i had done something wrong he told me he had drank. I was in shock. He was so active. he had 2 aa commitments a week. had taken many a new commer thru the steps. always had a car full of new guys he was helping. George never lied to me and everything he shared was right in line with the Big book. He did all the retreats. I couldnt do them cause i have a wife and 4 kids. I then asked his current sponsor to sponsor me. I then had some personal tragedies that i wont go into but I got 2 other sponsors. Now that that history is out of the way let me tell you my exp. I dont trash talk any of my sponsors. All helped me. All gave of thier time to save my life. I exp that the people god has sent me to help me gave me the best of what they had to give and who am i to talk bunk about thier help they gave me. I know where gunthar and the others come from I have been there myself. It in my exp is always easier to find fault with others than look at my own part. I am glad that i dont have to do that. I am not saying i am better than anyone here who is currently doing that but it took a spiritual path to be here for me to follow and my willingess to follow it to keep me hopefully from ever doing that. As chuck c "new pair of glases" said at the confrence that book was based on in his exp he has had 1000s of sponsors in AA. There are the ones who show us how to live and the ones who show us how not to live. I think he was spot on with that. ty for letting me share my exp here this morn.

My granddaddy always said "to each his own...if everybody wanted the same thing, they'd all want my wife"

Words to live by, as far as I'm concerned.

Live and let live. However if someone asks for my opinion, I'm not gonna lie or tell them what they want to hear, I'll state my opinion. I think that's what some may get confused on here. Don't ask for advice and then get pissed cause it's not what you wanted to hear.

If you ask, you're gonna get the perspectives of LOTS of different folks from different backgrounds and in different parts of the world that may not be like your neck of the woods, if you don't like the answer, delete and move on with your life. If you do, great-and I hope it helps you.

Just my own little opinion from my little neck of the woods... :)

nice hc

There are also three venues of communication available here. The board, instant message and private message. The board should be for stating opinions. Any arguemwnt could be taken to the more private sector. If questions still linger behind the scenes then ask THAT question on the board but do so in a way that still does not attack the individual you disagree with. The alternative is to allow what has BEEN happening then EVERYONE looks the fool. And yes I am quite aware of my own participation lol.