Discussion Topic
The Counter Dependent Man
Posted on 10/26/09, 12:53 am
I found this on someone's blog and I thought it was really great info and wanted to share:
The CoDA literature committee is working on a new piece of CoDA literature that addresses this topic, which is just beginning to be addressed in the therapeutic community and in recovery circles.
From the Counter-Dependent's Point of View
I should avoid emotional closeness, because it leaves me vulnerable and open to hurt. I will adopt an attitude of aloofness and indifference to keep my partner from getting a piece of me. Besides, if I let my partner get into my head, I will be under her rule and will be smothered. I will lose myself. To prevent this, I will subconsciously and consciously distance myself from my partner to keep her from overtaking me, while giving her fleeting moments of tenderness to keep her near me.
Here’s how I’ll go about it.
I will put off her requests for closeness, for talks and for time alone together. I will interrupt her and dismiss her opinions. I will show little interest when she wants to share an insight or a story from her day, and I will not share mine. When she hears me share something with someone else and asks. “Why didn’t you tell me that? I will say.†Or “I didn’t think you’d be interested†or “I forgot.†I will pretend to be interested, but internally, I scoff at her interests as well as her choices and habits. Also, I will make sure I don’t miss a chance to point out with a tone of superiority and rightness-- how opposite or different her choices and habits are from mine. This helps prove that any attempts at working on our relationship will likely fail, since we are so different and thereby gives me more reason to distance myself.
I will spend my time at home on house projects, watching TV, reading magazines or playing on the computer or working outside, anything and everything to leave no time for us to have a private moment. I will go to bed early or stay up each night later than her to avoid any closeness when we go to bed, then tell her she isn't getting enough or needs too much sleep. If I want to have sex, I will wait until she makes a move, keep her deprived and then, when I decide its time, begin touching her, knowing she’ll respond because I’ve minimized affection and she’s craving any intimacy I’ll offer. When I am not at home avoiding her, I will pursue activities outside the home and not include her or forget to tell her about my activities until the day of the event, thereby leaving little possibility that she can attend with me. I will avoid calling her during the day or keep my pager or cell phone off or on silent mode, to avoid talking with her. When I do think of reaching out, I quickly find a reason not to.
To keep her within arm’s reach, I will occasionally throw out a “we should do X.†I may even really mean to do something with her, but I won’t ever make it a priority so that other things I have to do will always come first... I will leave my schedule open to attend whatever event I want, work on any project I want, or go out with friends (without considering asking her if she wants to go with me). But I will raise a fuss when she decides to take a night off without getting my OK. After all, she always checks with me to see if I’ll be home, so if she doesn’t check, she must be punishing me, and I will call her on it. I will evade suggestion from her for a night out together doing something she enjoys (unless it is something I want to do or convenient for me) or will commit to a night out grudgingly and without any sign of enthusiasm. When she stops initiating sex or dates for us and then later complains about our lack of fun or intimate time, I will (with irritation in my tone) remind her that she needs to initiate it I can’t always be the one initiating.
If she asks that we have a talk, I will put on my game face of mild irritation at her demand that I share. I will let her run the talk, not offering much input and not validating her opinions. If she pushes ANY buttons or requests any changes in my behavior, I will unleash my rage and feel it is my entitlement to cut her, criticize, accuse her of riding me and then leave the room or the house, so that she can’t continue talking to me. Her talking is just a cover to get a chance to bipch at me anyway. When she sets up a session with a counselor, I will go so that no one can place blame on me for not going. Then I will tell the counselor that the reasons we have problems is that we are very different people so we can’t communicate with each other or I will simply refuse to engage in a meaningful way, and say that counseling just doesn't work for us.
Once in a while, I will throw her a crumb and share a thought or a hug with her. Or, at the spur of the moment, I will decide -- without asking her first -- to take her out to dinner so that she can’t say to her friends or my family He NEVER spends time alone with me. I will subvert any attempts from her to talk about us spending more time together during these rare occasions when I do spend a night with her. I also do things for her that I have procrastinated on, and then complain when she is unhappy that I waited so long to do them and accuse her of ingratitude.
I will show disgust at her lack of confidence and insecurities. Then I will bring up her tender spots (insecurities) whenever it helps me gain the upper hand or control in an uncomfortable situation. That way, the focus of whatever comes up is shifted away from me and onto her unreasonable demands, criticism and insecurities.
When she reacts to any of this with anger or other high emotions (yelling, getting hysterical, crying, bawling, or walks around joyless and bitter), I will offer very little comfort, concern, reassurance or attention and criticize her for over-reacting. After all, she is trying to punish me with all her hysterical and depressing emotions, and I don’t need the hassle.
Her anger and emotional reactions provide good reasons to keep distancing myself from such an intentionally hurtful person. I will make sure I tell my friends and family that her only moods are depressed, hysterical, joyless and bitter, and nothing I do is ever enough for her. That way I can make an ironclad case that proves to everyone, including myself, that it is her fault when she leaves me.
The CoDA literature committee is working on a new piece of CoDA literature that addresses this topic, which is just beginning to be addressed in the therapeutic community and in recovery circles.
From the Counter-Dependent's Point of View
I should avoid emotional closeness, because it leaves me vulnerable and open to hurt. I will adopt an attitude of aloofness and indifference to keep my partner from getting a piece of me. Besides, if I let my partner get into my head, I will be under her rule and will be smothered. I will lose myself. To prevent this, I will subconsciously and consciously distance myself from my partner to keep her from overtaking me, while giving her fleeting moments of tenderness to keep her near me.
Here’s how I’ll go about it.
I will put off her requests for closeness, for talks and for time alone together. I will interrupt her and dismiss her opinions. I will show little interest when she wants to share an insight or a story from her day, and I will not share mine. When she hears me share something with someone else and asks. “Why didn’t you tell me that? I will say.†Or “I didn’t think you’d be interested†or “I forgot.†I will pretend to be interested, but internally, I scoff at her interests as well as her choices and habits. Also, I will make sure I don’t miss a chance to point out with a tone of superiority and rightness-- how opposite or different her choices and habits are from mine. This helps prove that any attempts at working on our relationship will likely fail, since we are so different and thereby gives me more reason to distance myself.
I will spend my time at home on house projects, watching TV, reading magazines or playing on the computer or working outside, anything and everything to leave no time for us to have a private moment. I will go to bed early or stay up each night later than her to avoid any closeness when we go to bed, then tell her she isn't getting enough or needs too much sleep. If I want to have sex, I will wait until she makes a move, keep her deprived and then, when I decide its time, begin touching her, knowing she’ll respond because I’ve minimized affection and she’s craving any intimacy I’ll offer. When I am not at home avoiding her, I will pursue activities outside the home and not include her or forget to tell her about my activities until the day of the event, thereby leaving little possibility that she can attend with me. I will avoid calling her during the day or keep my pager or cell phone off or on silent mode, to avoid talking with her. When I do think of reaching out, I quickly find a reason not to.
To keep her within arm’s reach, I will occasionally throw out a “we should do X.†I may even really mean to do something with her, but I won’t ever make it a priority so that other things I have to do will always come first... I will leave my schedule open to attend whatever event I want, work on any project I want, or go out with friends (without considering asking her if she wants to go with me). But I will raise a fuss when she decides to take a night off without getting my OK. After all, she always checks with me to see if I’ll be home, so if she doesn’t check, she must be punishing me, and I will call her on it. I will evade suggestion from her for a night out together doing something she enjoys (unless it is something I want to do or convenient for me) or will commit to a night out grudgingly and without any sign of enthusiasm. When she stops initiating sex or dates for us and then later complains about our lack of fun or intimate time, I will (with irritation in my tone) remind her that she needs to initiate it I can’t always be the one initiating.
If she asks that we have a talk, I will put on my game face of mild irritation at her demand that I share. I will let her run the talk, not offering much input and not validating her opinions. If she pushes ANY buttons or requests any changes in my behavior, I will unleash my rage and feel it is my entitlement to cut her, criticize, accuse her of riding me and then leave the room or the house, so that she can’t continue talking to me. Her talking is just a cover to get a chance to bipch at me anyway. When she sets up a session with a counselor, I will go so that no one can place blame on me for not going. Then I will tell the counselor that the reasons we have problems is that we are very different people so we can’t communicate with each other or I will simply refuse to engage in a meaningful way, and say that counseling just doesn't work for us.
Once in a while, I will throw her a crumb and share a thought or a hug with her. Or, at the spur of the moment, I will decide -- without asking her first -- to take her out to dinner so that she can’t say to her friends or my family He NEVER spends time alone with me. I will subvert any attempts from her to talk about us spending more time together during these rare occasions when I do spend a night with her. I also do things for her that I have procrastinated on, and then complain when she is unhappy that I waited so long to do them and accuse her of ingratitude.
I will show disgust at her lack of confidence and insecurities. Then I will bring up her tender spots (insecurities) whenever it helps me gain the upper hand or control in an uncomfortable situation. That way, the focus of whatever comes up is shifted away from me and onto her unreasonable demands, criticism and insecurities.
When she reacts to any of this with anger or other high emotions (yelling, getting hysterical, crying, bawling, or walks around joyless and bitter), I will offer very little comfort, concern, reassurance or attention and criticize her for over-reacting. After all, she is trying to punish me with all her hysterical and depressing emotions, and I don’t need the hassle.
Her anger and emotional reactions provide good reasons to keep distancing myself from such an intentionally hurtful person. I will make sure I tell my friends and family that her only moods are depressed, hysterical, joyless and bitter, and nothing I do is ever enough for her. That way I can make an ironclad case that proves to everyone, including myself, that it is her fault when she leaves me.
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Reply #1 10/26/09 1:31am
I cant believe how accurate this post described what I went through with my ex EUM. It was so amazing to see it from his perspective and what he is thinking. It is enlightening and yet extremely sad and sick. I am about 1.5 months into No Contact and have my ups and downs. I need to constantly remind myself of this sickness so I dont get sucked back in or take his rejections so personally. I thank you so much for posting this. It truly is the man I was with EXACTLY. -
Reply #2 10/26/09 12:25pm
This is amazing! Scary and sad...I felt like it was someone's specific description of the last 2 years of my life. Thanks for posting it! -
Reply #3 10/26/09 1:12pm
Very interesting read - scary to see so much of my ex and also the man I just recently trusted who I didn't think was like this!!
(This aside - why are there question marks throughout the post?)
There are different parts in there that apply to the 2 differently - but this is written to sound like they really are thinking like this but ARE they? Are is the way they are so deeply part of them that THEY would deny all of this??
Are there ANY decent men out there???
I wish I could put in a nutshell my last 2 years with a man who I just didn't see it coming - It's like the first year he was great - and then now - it's like "who are you???" - the difference is like night and day!! It hasn't helped that I have worked for him and that my daughter used to babysit his kids and we've known each other's families for 15 years and that he got away from the worst nightmare you can imagine!! BUT I told him, that although he didn't CAUSE her problems, I said you contributed to them - and NO reaction - what's up with that??? Do they have no emotions except when it is convenient. I even told him recently that it's all about him!!
I joined this group to help me - I had gotten the strength to leave an abusive marriage - along with other things in it - and this man is not like my ex - but, I repeat - are there any decent men out there??? I've been working on myself for 4 years now - books, support groups, therapy, prayer groups at church - and even though I feel like I've made progress, I am so frustrated that I'm not further along then I am and why is it taking so long???? And don't tell me to have patience - it takes time - if I weren't working on it, it would be different - I'm really very disappointed in this man AND myself - cuz I look back and see things I shouldn't have done - and people tell me I've learned -and my response is it was a hard lesson!!!
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Reply #4 10/26/09 2:55pm
The very sad thing is that this behavior can make a generally sane person feel insane. It is like slowly corrosive to your very core without you even knowing it. The first time I dated this guy (yes, I dated him more than once!), I had NO IDEA why I went so crazy...quitting my job, moving, severely depressed, panic attacks, lost all confidence in my looks, sexuality, worth, totally isolated myself and felt very much in withdrawls without him.. So, luckily, this time around I KNOW it is not me, I KNOW it is beyond repair, I KNOW it is a sickness, and I KNOW that I cant go back. As hard as it is, it is only harder to be emotionally strangled with this type of person. I am now concentrating on ME and why I put up with less than human treatment from him and am currently working on defining what a healthy and normal relationship should look like and accept nothing less. Thank goodness I am not alone in this and I have the internet this time around to educate me! It is too bad I didnt learn about this sickness many, many years ago..... -
Reply #5 10/26/09 7:59pm
Oh boy, SusyP!! To think that I was on the receiving end of one of these! Yuk, yuk, yuk! Thank you for posting this very useful article. You are so good at digging out relevant information. xxxxxxxxxx -
Reply #6 10/26/09 11:56pm
May,
I the question marks are punction, I do not know why that happens on DS whenever I post something from a word document where there is ' as in the word: don't, then it makes it crazy looking. Sorry if it was difficult to read.
Per your: I even told him recently that it's all about him!!
I wonder if he has some Narcissit qualities? That can be a nightmare to deal with.
MF: I repeat - are there any decent men out there??? I've been working on myself for 4 years now - books, support groups, therapy, prayer groups at church - and even though I feel like I've made progress, I am so frustrated that I'm not further along then I am and why is it taking so long????
SP: I personally do believe there are good, kind and decent men out there. I have been with them and refuse to believe that all men are a$$holes. I share your frustration in the healing process taking SO LONG. I will not even begin to bore you with the thousands of hours I have logged in therapy, the MANY weekend seminars I have attended, and the endless amount of self help books I have read and continue to read.
I think arat38 recently posed something where she said that we were like an onion, peeling back the layers and that sooner or later we will get to the core issue. I know for myself it has been a process of much self discovery to realize that I was dating a text book sex addict and Narcissit and then to realize that my mother was also a Narcissit and to begin addressing those issues so that I could finally heal.
They say that when the student is ready, the teacher appears. I would say I must not have been ready to process this type of information before now, or it would have been brought to my attention in previous years.
I appreciate all the effort you have put into the self discovery process. it is NOT an easy process, but you have stayed the course and I believe you will be rewarded for your efforts. -
Reply #7 10/27/09 2:42am
holy smokes....
this is absolutely the ex before the last ex...
I'm stunned. -
Reply #8 10/27/09 7:38am
Thanks, SusyP, for responding.
The part of putting on a game face rang soooo true! I wanted to talk with him about some things - showed up at his house to do so - and I couldn't believe how stoic he was when I'm talking about things - and NO reaction or input to what I had to say - really creepy!! And I had thought he couldn't be like that - he can be so warm and caring - duh - fake!!
So - the fact that he referred to himself as a whore (during his 'past' life) should have made me think that he hasn't or is it COULDN'T change when it comes to women and how he uses them??? (He has become a 'Christian' - so I thought he had changed) Not that we had sex, or he used me in that way - I told him it didn't matter HOW he used a woman, he was still USING her!! He didn't seem to get it!! On top of the 'whore' comment, he had read AND collected 25 years of Playboys - but got rid of 'most' of them when he married the nightmare that he did. CAN a man like this really change?? HE'S in counseling but I don't think the real issues come up - just why did he stay with the trainwreck that he married???
I understand the onion and layers - so very true -
I had ordered the book "Women who love too much" and also the book that goes along with it - meditations and also another book, getting over someone you are addicted to - those came yesterday - hope to share some out of those.
Glad to find this group -
Blessings to you all today - -
Reply #9 10/29/09 2:09pm
All i have to say is WOW. not only do i find this true about every man i have dated. But question do i participate in some of these same things myself? I think i do. To an extent. Interesting. -
Reply #10 10/29/09 5:40pm
dead on description of my 3 'relationships'.
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