Sex / Pornography Addiction Support Group

I find this topic really hits home for me.
Since my h committed to recovery, letting go of the porn was a much less of a hurdle than the masturbation. This helps me see why.

The other thing that really stands out is....
"many addicts rationalise their behaviour by saying that they were engaging only in masturbation and fantasy"
Yes this was how he first told me he visited brothels, but only for visual pleasure, and to masturbate, until the truth finally was disclosed.

I am loving this book very good.....thanks Lorilou xxx

I agree completely with everything you posted above, Trina, and for me, masturbation always has been, and always will be one of my bottom line behaviors. If I masturbate, I'm in my addiction. Period. And for me, this really doesn't have anything to do with right or wrong, good or bad. This is about my sanity. Since I am not now in a relationship, I can take a look at this issue from a slightly different perspective that might be of help to other single sex addict.

In the posting, it spoke about how masturbation can cut off the communication between the partners and possibly dull or blunt the man's emotional responses. The same thing happens for me as it relates to my ability to be in touch with my spiritual side or with my Higher Power. (Yes, I'm a member of several Twelve Step groups for sex addicts and incest survivors). When I masturbate, I somehow sever that connection between myself and the Infinite. I can't explain how or why it works, but it does. And the break in the relationship is instantaneous. This is how it works for me. Others have had a different experience.

One of the groups I attend has several members who have found a way to masturbate without effecting either communication with their partner or the emotional connection. For them, masturbation is a loving, self-nurturing activity. Now these folks have been around for quite a while, and both have over 5 years of sobriety from the bottom line behaviors, so I respect their opinions. I only know that for me, such loving, self-nurturing masturbation is not possible. If I masturbate, I'm back in my addiction. Period. That's why I don't do it.

I have found the freedom and joy of recovery infinitely more pleasurable that anything I ever got from the addiction. My mind is now clear, I have full awareness of and contact with my emotions, and I have a relationship with my Higher Power. I'm not about to give all of this up for the momentary pleasure I'd get from masturbating to orgasm. I haven't gotten to this place overnight. It has taken many years of hard work and therapy. But now that I am here, I wouldn't give up my place in life for all the money in the world.

The answer is that women and men approach sex differently . Women typically require an emotional connection with their partner if they are going to have sex. If problems or conflict exist in the relationship they must be addressed before many women are willing to be sexual.
It is a different story with men. Men don't have to have an emotional connection to have sex. They can completely separate sex from love or emotion. If a man wants to be sexual but there is some emotional baggage in the relationship, his wife will probably want to "unpack" that baggage before being sexual. If a man is not willing to wait or make the emotional investment in the relationship, he can masturbate - literally be sexual with himself and not have to expend any emotional energy.

This notion completely degrades men. Men are pigs because they want sex and if they don't get it they will masturbate. Even if they do, they are perverted, self-seeking selfish pigs because they mastrubate anyway. . The asusmption that the typical feminine emotional path to intimacy is more moral, more pure, more rightious, more honorable than the physical appitite for sexual interaction that is the pathway to intmiacy for men.

I am reading a book called SexGod by Rob Bell. He is making a very significant arguement that sexuality is much much less about sex than it is about connection. Women assume that their appitite for emotional connection, or "bagage unloading" is rightious in comparison to men because emotions create connections. The opposite is actually true, oh so often in our lives as addicts. The emotions of anger, resentment and self loathing drive us away from connections and into brothels. Our wife's anger, judgement and punishment through withholding sex until THEY are ready to deal with the relaity of the relationship is NOT connection.

It is not inaccuate that the emotional facite of sexuality is vital, but just because you are not male, do not asume that if men were more loke women and lead with their emotions, then all woudl be good with the human race. The reality is that we would die off pretty quickly (one generation) if the perspective that emitional sexuality is superior to physical sexuality.

How does this relation to masturbation? I recently changed my bottom line (which I am miseralby failing at at this point, from no masturbation to no masturbation without my wife's permission. This was not to justify that behavior, but rather to reconcile two failing moments of perfectionism in my mind. First, I can find noting in the bible that says that behavior is sin. It is clear that lust, or objectifying people is sin, and that being disobedient when God tells you to give your brothers widow an heir is sin. But not masturbation. So for a while in my recovery, I have really struggled with this being too idealistic for my fundamental beliefs.

Secondly, out of the intense desire to connect, I want to offer an opportunity to my wife to know when and how I sturggle. So far in my recovery, she has been on the side lines using typical notions like "if he gets better, everthing will be fine," "Why do I have to deal with his crap" "And I dont want to discuss it, and If you ask me for what will help you because you are struggling, then that means you are weak and pathetic, and I am not going to help you because it will spoil you. Man Up!"

All of this is fine, and I have to take her where she it and sweep my side of the street, but don't beguile the physical appitite for sex by tagging mastrubation as the cause of disconnected intimacy.

The typical sexual withdraw by women after disclusure is as distructive to communication and connectedness as mastrubation to avoid the emotional agony of being rejected, AGAIN, by the woman you want to connect with the most.

OK, I am angry and in a very bad place right now, but if the pathway for intimacy is emotional for women, and physical for men, then is is pretty arogant to say that one is better or above the other.

Lately I have been considering the analogy that sexual intimacy is sort of the passing of the baton between men and women.

Women come to the marriage bed because they feel connected emotionally. Men come because they have a physical appittite for sex. Then during intercourse, and probably more specifically through the process of orgasm, women become more physically sexually focused and men become more emotionally connected. It is like I take the emotional batton from her, and she takes the physicalb batton from me.

the point I am trying to make is that it is a mistake to believe that one is better than the other. This is the typical moral high-ground that women stand on and point their fingers at their husbands from. If true intimacy is possible it comes from humility, respect for the emotional connection by men and respect for the physical connection by women.

BTW, my experience is also that mastrubation is inside my addiction and I am disconnected when it is happening. But I am suggesting that the disconnection is not the result of masturbation, but the cause of it. That is why it is so difficult to stop. If real connection was full and abounding with our wives, the lonliness that masturbation is attempting to soothe would not be there and I would be more intersted in making arrangements for this weekends date night, or fixing the house.

Choose, I can tell you're in a hard place right now. But what is your intention with masturbation? Is it like you say - BECAUSE you don't have a connection to your wife?

We may be wives and, as such, unfamiliar with the emotional reasons for masturbation, but I think that only gives us a slightly greater advantage to see the act (and consequent behaviors) from a distance. You want to justify the behavior, so of course it will anger you to hear it talked about negatively. I am really sorry your wife fails to connect with you. But is sounds like you're using that as justification, thus your going to keep spinning in circles if your answer to that kind of rejection is masturbation. I think it only reconfirms what Trina quoted, "For too many men, masturbation becomes a complusive act that is used to medicate pain, stress, lonliness, fear, anger or other emotions."

So what is the solution to the lonliness in the face of unavailable intimacy? NOT SEX, intimacy?

"If your answer to that kind of rejection is masturbation."

Any suggestions as to how to answer that kind of rejection. Why do you think it is just okie dokie to meat that form of rejection out on your husband?

On another front, I have observed in my groups that men in their 20s and 30s can rack up a few months of sobriety, Men in their 40s adn 50s can sometimes make a year, or maybe 2. And men in their 50+ start getting some real sobriety going 5 10 years.

To deny the biology of male sexuality is a falacy. During the typical months or often year that wives withhold sex during recovery, it is typically not likely for their husbands to get more than 2 or 3 months of sobriety. I am not justifying masturbation to medicate emotions. That is exactly where I am at right now. I am saying the article Trina presented is neglecting the simple biology of the male sex drive, and subordinateing it to superior emotionaliity of the femail sexuality. Emasculation.

Oh yea, thanks for being here to take my defensive darts. I know you care, and I really appreciate it. Thanks for lettng me lash out. it helps me see how angry I am.

Sorry you are going through a rough period Choose.

I don't think the notion degrades men, it degrades the addiction. And let me explain why i think this, and it possibly explains the way i have coped, through all this.

I see my h as two separate facists. There's the loving, caring, intelligent him, that i fell in love with, and then the addiction side, which possesses all the negative attributes. There is a continuing struggle for one side to be the boss, or to take over his whole body.
For many years yes, the addiction took over, and h submittted and let it win. Now he has the tools to fight back his body. Its a struggle everyday.

When he goes through periods of disconnect, or is quiet, or keeps to himself at bit, i know he is struggling....as this is the addiction trying to creep back into his body.
So when it says:
"The dismal fact is that too often men will continue to indulge in masturbation and neglect the emotional and communication concerns of the relationship"
It doesn't mean all men, only those struggling with SA in their lives and I see this time is when the addiction is trying to push back the battlelines. So its up to the SA to fight back against the battle.

Your wife is struggling to separate those two sides, and is still feeling hurt and is upset with all of you. That is reflective of what stage of her OWN recovery is.
I agree with Cali, you are struggling with outside influences on your recovery, feeling stress and lonlieness from your wife and perhaps are indeed looking to medicate your feelings with masturbation.
There is always a danger for the addiction side to justify certain things as okay, because it wants to win.
Its up to the fabulous, wonderful, strong and intelligent you to fight back, and take control of your body.

Hi Trina,

I don't have to read the book but I know exactly what is in it as I have followed this path to recovery step by step; Dr. Magness is my sex therapist. Masturbation is a bottom-line behavior for me as well and i agree with everything Charli said.

Choose, I am sorry for what you are going through. I can't agree with your stance on masturbation in the context of being a sex addict. i do agree with you that masturbation is the result of disconnection. In fact, sex addiction in general is the result of this disconnect. I'm afraid that masturbation may be a gateway as like any addiction, it escalates.

Magness's book is about recovery from sex addiction but it's main subject is not relational recovery. Unfortunately, relational recovery demands BOTH partners' participation. I am lucky my wife has been so supportive of my recovery and she has recognized her own role in our relational issues without taking blame for the addiction. I am now having to play a more supportive role as she is discovering more and more issues about her childhood trauma. Keeping my boundaries intact has been very challenging here lately.

I hate to sound like a broken record on boundaries, but this is where I see the issue lies in your conflict Choose. It is obvious from your post that both you and your wife are having difficulty with protective and containment boundaries. This is not unusual. I hope you two are able to develop the healthy boundaries you need to move on in your recovery and you can get past this difficult time.

Best regards and I will pray for both of you,

Soberone

Essentially, in an ideal world, couples should reconnect with their spouses every day or two, via sexual and/or emotional intimacy. Why? Because guys tend to have a vigorous sexual appetite, and women have a need to connect emotionally, and when you're true desire is for each other, the needs naturally feed into each other.

However, it is well to remember that sex addicts and their spouses don't live in that ideal world. Sex addicts have learned to cope with stresses using unhealthy habits, and the spouses are rarely prepared with how to assist the addict within their husband.

Choose, I have spent too much time fantasizing about a life with a normal man. It was getting me nowhere, only making me bitter, and I eventually had to decide to support his recovery or sever the ties. Likewise, my husband can not live a life where masturbation is normal, even though for some guys it can be. Those guys don't masturbate for the same reasons my husband did.

Your choice, Choose, is to find somewhere to connect. You are obviously in a very vulnerable place, and probably feel of little worth right now. That is not your fault. You're doing good, Choose. You're just in a rut but keep remembering recovery doesn't have a time limit. Just pursue it one day at a time. We'll be here to encourage you.

Hi Choose,

I suspected, many times after getting "into it" with you that we were often talking about two completely different scenarios. Your opening up regarding your wife here confirms this. Fist, let me say I am so sorry your wife is being so hurtful toward you. Obviously, it goes without saying those we love the most can hurt us the deepest. I hate to talk about your wife as I don't know her but I don't, nor have I ever agreed with the idea of withholding sex to punish your husband. I think the statement "Man-up" is demeaning and does little to motivate in a healthy way. I know you too get angry and it truly seems like I am speaking to a different person when you are angry because when you aren't triggered you can say the most thoughtful, intelligent and caring things.

So what to make of all this. I believe you both are caring, loving, intelligent and sensitive, God-loving individual rubbing up on each others wounds. Its like the perfect mix, either for wonderful, exciting things to happen or tragic, rueful and hurtful outcomes. I believe God is calling each of you to look at those wounds and question why it is that you so perfectly compliment each others pain. As C.S. Lewis says "Pain is God's Megaphone." Trying to get your attention and draw you closer to him. There are ways of dealing with both of your anger as Sober said. Are you in a place where you would like to look at those issues? Is your wife?

I think something that resonates repeatedly with me regarding recovery and regarding your questions thread have a lot to do WITH the Bible. More specifically, Galatians where it talks about the fruits of the spirit, especially the fruits of temperance regarding masturbation. Something Charli stated does possibly become possible for some addicts but on the whole until the addict is far into recovery temperance in that area has to be put on the back burner. Also, I don't believe either one, emotion or physical connections, is better than the other in regards to temperance. It takes one to complete the other. In addition both can be exploited and twisted into evil. Such as the love addict. The person so in-love with the addict that she can not see the addict for who he is. In essence she too is guilty of objectifying as she is only able to see a fantasy.

I hope this helps Choose. I'm sad you are struggling so. I do pray if I may that your wife will follow you into a healing state and that you can lead her to the answers to relieve your conflict.

I pray for your healing place together with your wife.

Lorilou

I do see that this is true for many men, but it's leaving out other factors and making masturbation out to be a bigger culprit than other factors in such situations.

"If problems or conflict exist in the relationship they must be addressed before many women are willing to be sexual." Not always true.

Now that men can more readily separate sex from emotional intimacy, yes, but to say, "Men don't have to have an emotional connection to have sex. They can completely separate sex from love or emotion” is making a huge stretch and undermining men's emotional need and capacity. I guess for the male sex addict, it fits because most of this is written for male sex addicts right? But see women do this too. The underlying reasons may be different, but the gratification, compulsiveness, etc is essentially the same.

"For too many men, masturbation becomes a compulsive act that is used to medicate pain, stress, loneliness, fear, anger or other emotions." Again, women also do this and it says something about this here quote and how complex the human psyche can be.

If a man withdraws and masturbates in order to avoid the dealing with the emotional, then isn't that a secondary effect? I guess the writer is trying to say that, but doesn't quite do so. The withdrawal from the emotional is the root of it. I think men and women who are in a committed relationship should freely masturbate as long as they have that connection, as long as their intimacy together is what's most important. Also, I never agreed with the idea of withholding sex to punish your husband. To not want it because you're need is to resolve a conflict first in order to enjoy it is one thing, but to just withhold to it "punish your man" annoys me to no end.

Sorry if i come off insensitive or kind or out of the loop here as I am not a wife, but as i woman--who has similar needs--i wanted to share my thoughts on that.