I actually think this is a sketchy subject to discuss, even thought I personally have thought about it a lot. In my 12 step work Ive met many men with completely different definitions of Sex Addiction and Sobriety. (I go to Sex Addicts Anonymous meetings where you are allowed to define your own sobriety). Sometimes I feel like some of these men are cheating themselves, but choose to think that they are just growing. This was certainly that way for me. Some of the stuff that I considered to be sobriety in the beginning of my recovery, I would not consider to be sobriety now. That being said, I would not be able to get this far in my recovery if I have not taking those baby steps (which felt like huge jumps to me at the time).

I have shared my current definition of sobriety on my blog, and certainly dont want to make a secret out of it, but I wanted to say something else in this thread. For me, there is simple no right and wrong way to achieve sobriety. Sobriety, in my opinion, is an ever evolving term. Like a horizon, it moves away from me as I keep on walking towards it. It might sound discouraging, but it is not, because at any time all I have to do is turn around and look back to see just how far I've come.

In a way this reminds me of a common argument that Ive heard while I was in the armed forces which brunch of service is better? To me this never made sense. For me there were simply those who chose to serve their country and those who didnt. I think this is the same way with sobriety. There are those who choose to walk towards the light in their lives, and those who dont. We all have this little voice inside of us that will tell us if we are going in the right direction or not. I personally think that this is the voice of God (the way that I understand God) but I dont want to push my believes onto anybody. Some people choose to think of it as intuition, others as activity of our prefrontal cortex, but regardless of what we choose to believe, we all know it is there.
So to me the important part is to listen to your inner voice, and to use it as a compass on your way to recovery. Sobriety, like the life itself, is a journey and not a destination. We all have heard this saying before, but very few take time to really think about it.

The sobriety date and the definition of sobriety are just tools that I used to monitor my progress. My goal is not to remain sober for x number of days, but rather to go through each day learning to be my personal best. I do keep track of my sobriety, but I dont make it the goal in itself. I believe the amount of sobriety is just a consequence of my daily choices and actions. If I keep making the right choices the sobriety will come.

This is ironic because just a few days ago I had a small incident that I was not sure if I should consider a slip up. I was online, and instead of doing my homework like I intended to, or going to sleep since I felt really tiered, I choose to go on some social media sites, that used to be my stepping stone into getting in trouble. I only spent may be 10 minutes on the site, and all I did was to look through some of the most popular articles on this site. But even though this sounds innocent, in the back of my mind I felt like I lost control. The thing is, this site provides a small image preview of what the article is about, and I felt myself hoping that I would sneak a peek at something exciting (code word for something I can lust over) and get away with it. On that day I just reached my three weeks of sobriety, and really didnt want to give that up. I was actually thinking to make a post out of this on Daily Strength, asking if I should consider this incident a slip up, but I never got around to do it.(I really didnt want to give it up :)

Writing this response, however, made me realize that I was far enough in my journey to sobriety to consider this a slip up, and to feel OK about it. I have learned something from this experience, I keep on making progress, and that is all that matters. X number of days of sobriety (my current goal is 30) will happen on its own.

P.S. I feel that I must give credit for some of the things that Ive said to where it rightfully belongs; that is to Thomas M. Sterner the author of The Practicing Mind: Bringing Discipline and Focus Into Your Life ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0977657205?ie=UTF8&tag=weilos095-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0977657205 )

Also special thanks to TrinaOz for raising this issue. I feel that God has spoken to me through your question.

Feed

Thanks for your honesty and sharing that feed. I think SA's would all have different levels, and yes it would be different depending on what level of recovery you were at, i would think. I thought it would be great to hear others and perhaps learn from each other about it.

Feed, good on you for recognising your temptation!! Whether you went there or not, you recognised it, responded and have learnt from it. And for that you should be very proud of yourself.
Well done :)

For me, Trina, early in my recovery, I drew up a list of both negative boundaries (things that put me in a slippery place), and positive boundaries (behaviors I would embrace that would enhance my recovery). I came up with a bunch of negative boundaries, but basically, they fell into a few simple groups.

I was to stay away from areas here in town where the adult bookstores were located, as well as the places where the massage parlors, topless/nude bars, and prostitutes were. I was also to stay our of all liquor stores, since they often carried pornography as well as booze.

I was to stay out of all public parks (unless there with a group for some specific purpose, such as a church picnic or my daughter's birthday party), I also needed to stay away from the public restrooms in shopping malls, unless there on business. In that case, I was to get in and out FAST, before I was tempted to act out. (Just before I got into recovery, I was starting to cross gender lines with my acting out behavior).

I tried not to watch TV shows that featured a whole lot of skin, shows like Baywatch. These kind of shows could trigger me. And since I didn't have cable TV precisely because of this issue, that wasn't an issue for me.

I practiced the "Three Second Rule". If I saw a pretty girl walking down the street, I allowed myself to admire her for 3 seconds, but ONLY 3 seconds, no more. That way, I wasn't denying normal human attraction, but I wasn't staring long enough to begin to fantasize. However, if I did begin to fantasize, I had several techniques that brought me back into the present moment. One technique involved counting backwards from five to zero. By the time I reached zero, my mind was to involved with the counting, that I'd totally forgotten about the girl. Another technique involved pulling over to the side of the road and looking around a bit. When something caught my eye, I would mentally describe it to myself. Once again, my attention was diverted and I was back in the present moment rather than in a fantasy.

Fantasizing, sexualizing non-sexual situations, and objectifying women all played a role in my addiction, so I had to guard against such behaviors. Techniques such as those I described above proved very helpful in this process.

My main addictive behaviors involved fantasizing (which included "rubber-necking", sexualizing, and objectifying), pornography, masturbation, topless/nude bars, massage parlors, and prostitutes. The simple rules outlined above covered all of these bases and kept me sober. They worked for me!

Here are mine,

1. Physically clicking on something lustful or searching for keywords that would show me a preview.
2. Masturbation
3. Purposefully lusting after women (in real life), instead of facing lust, identifying the underlying lie, and replacing it with a statement of truth.
4. Watching TV with lustful intentions.

"Just before I got into recovery, I was starting to cross gender lines with my acting out behavior" @Charli, Thanks for clarefying, I was like" What did the bathrooms had to do with it?". Thank you for being open about it, its amazing how this addiction can really twist the normal set of things, and begin to turn you in to something that you are really not. It happened to me too, just in different ways. I just wish more people knew about so it doesn't have to be that way for them.

Thanks for sharing that Charli, thats some great info there.

You have been committed to recovery for some years now (congrats), have you been able to loosen the boundries, without any troubles? Or will you have to be stringent forever?

Has any other spouses talked to their SA's to see if you have varying levels of what you each term a slip-up?

Trina,

Several days ago, I answered this question and due to the technical nature of the goofy little slider bar built into the left side of the touch pad on my laptop, it was erased before I could submit it to the forum.

So, second time around in a little less timely manner.

I distinguish a slip from a relapse in my personal situation as the line between breaking my morals and doing things that are not productive or healthy for my recovery.

My bottom line comes from Every Mans Battle definition of sexual pruity.

No sexual gratification comes from anyone or anything other than my spouse; including
masturbation
explicit material,
elicit contact
fantasizing (without responding with aversion therapy, quoting scripture, or praying for the objectified).

I have modified this to allow honest sobriety to say fantasizing without responding with aversion therapy, quoting scripture or praying for the objectified. This was because I do not think it is reasonable to take every thought captive BEFORE I have the thoughts, only after, so I could not honestly expect myself never to begin fantasizing, but I could expect myself to respons properly.

Now, there are different levels of consequenses for each of these behaviors.

If I act out in relationship with someone other than my wife, it will have deep and grave consequenses for me and everyone I love around me. This is a relapse.

All the others are slips-ups.

If I masturbate, then I am stepping off a slippery slope which COULD LEAD to a relapse, for me, since I started recovery, it has lead to a relapse, and it has not lead to a relapse.

I conntinue to have trouble committing to the idea that it is evil and forbidden simply because it is not clearly stated so in the bible, like adultry is. The jury is still out for now. I abstain from it, becase I do not have a clear answer to this, and I have no need when I am home because my wife and I are obedient to the other scripture that clearly indicates not to withhold sexual benevolence from one another, except for a time of prayer and fasting, only as mutually agreed and only for a specific designated time. So, for me, for now, masturbation is not necessary or useful, though I still struggle with it sometimes when I travel, and am hungry, angry, lonley, and tired (Which are hard to avoid while traveling)

So, masturbation is a slip.
Explicit material is a slip, and a much more sever slip if I masturbate to it, because one boundary I have set and am consistantly successful at specifically avoiding any visual stimulation internal or external, fantasizing or porn) while mastrubating. I worked this out long ago in college, and think that the practice I did then has kept porn from being a primary trigger for me.

Back to explicit material. The only time since my relapse in april that I have looked at porn was during a trip where I tool a laptop that did not have covenant eyes installed on it. This opened the door, and I had other H.A.L.T. issues going on, so I jumped in. Luckily, the internet connection sucked and nothing worked. That gave me the moment of breath to install covenant eyes on that laptop. With the accountability in place, porn without mastrubation is a slip-up, that I do not struggle with, and do not have to worry about, as long as I stay away from un-accountable computers when I am vulmnerable (HALT)

If I masturbated to porn in secret from my accountability partners, then I would be in grate danger of a relapse.

Explicit contact also means never being alone in the presence of another woman other than my wife. Besides my mother, children and therapist, I have compromised this boundary only 2 times since August 2008. One was not actually my doing and I responded immediately by getting up and opening the office door that the female coworker closed without saying a word. The other I am still working on, was very unsafe, but I also handled that one pretty well. Except that I should have never been there.

Once I became concious of this boundary, it actually became fairly easy, and made each breach a very concious problem in my head at the time they were happening.

So, a relapse will kill me. A slip if not delt with quickly will likely lead to a relapse, but will not kill anyone.

Sobriety based on SA is "No sex with self or anyone other than a spouse (spouse being the other person in a marriage between a man and a woman) and a progressive victory over lust.

Do I think that these boundaries can be loosened as time goes on? The answer is Yes and No.

Regarding, relapse, no, never. Regarding porn, no, never, it is intended to create lust and drag us off. No useful reason to engage in it. Sometime in the future, if my wife wanted to read a book about sexuality, and wanted me to explore that with me, I would be fine with that, for two reasons. First her involvement and initiative. Second, porn is not my primary trigger.

Her awareness, approval and involvement. This is actually The EMB leaders newer definition of sexual purity. I think this is not complete because for example my wife may be a sex addict, so this would not be the end all/be all.

But regarding my own sexual boundaries within our marriage, this is a good gage. If my wife is comfortable with me masturbating without fantasy or porn while I am traveling, and she is aware of it, and involved in that she is pressing into the decision making process and approval with me, then I think it would be fine, no guilt, no hiding, no shame, and a pleasant way to comfort and relieve some of the tension. This is not currently where we are. So it is a slip. But I think in the future, it would be possible, as long as we were both involved. As long as I do it alone, it is distructive.

I did not mean this to be a tretis on masturbation, but as I said earlier, this is the only place that I can clearly compromise my standard for sobriety without specifically threatening myself, or going directly against scripture.

In summary.

Explicit Material - Porn - not useful, clearly distructive, no compromize. - Solution - accountability relationships, and software. The slip up is not the porn, it is letting the accountability wall down.

Explicit contact - Relapse - Totally unacceptable, will killl me and bring severe consequenses. - Slip-up - being alone in the same room with another woman, other than my wife. And for me because I struggle with same-sex acting out as well, (Thanks Feed, and Charlie for opening up to this, since no other men admitted this when asked a few months back) Never be alone with a man in a private setting. Alone in public, business, or social settings that interuptions are likely, or where my wife is involves is fine.

Masturbation - Relapse if it involves porn - Slip-up - when it is done in secret as a response to unpleasant emtions to compe. Not part of the addictive process, if my wife is aware, involved and approaved (possibly in the future)

Hi Trina,

To answer your question, yes, I have been able to loosen these stringent boundaries quite a bit over the years. As I've dealt with my childhood abuse issues, and faulty core beliefs, I'm no longer tempted in any way to act out when I go to certain parts of town. Of course, I'm still mindful of the fact that certain areas used to be problematic for me, so I don't INTENTIOALLY go to these places, unless I have a specific reason to be there. But I will no longer drive for miles in an effort to avoid certain areas. A good example of what I'm talking about is my current job.

I'm currently teaching part-time at one of the local universities here in town. To get to school, I have to drive along the western edge of a huge park where I used to act out. I'm no longer tempted to act out, or to even drive into or through the park. There is no longer any attraction there for me.

As far as the positive boundaries go (the things that enhance or add to my recovery), I guess I could let up on those a little bit, too, but I haven't. I feel like I have a lot to share with the Twelve Step groups, especially the newcomers, plus it gives me a chance to talk to and socialize some of my friends on a regular basis.

Everyone I know here in town who has any sustained recovery has also been able to loosen their boundaries a bit as they, too, have worked through all of their issues, so this seems to be the pattern, at least for us here in St. Louis. Maybe that will give your husband some hope. Tight boundaries don't seem to be a forever thing, just necessary for a few years until issues have been dealt with. Hope that helps!

addiction is habitual sin. Once the sin stops, (Sobriety) and the habits are changed, then the character is different. The same person with the same character going the same place will do the same thing.. but the same person with a different character going to the same place will do something different. This is recovery. Sobriety (clear boundaries, kept) is necessary for real recovery, but the sobriety is not the foundation of recovery, it is the catalist. The foundation is change of character. Once the character changes, then he can go into a strip club and pull his buddy out of the lions mouth without falling himself because he knows who he is and what the dangers are, he has been there.