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Hi. I took myself off of Coumadin 4 weeks ago against the doctor's advice. I couldn't take the side effects any longer (joint pain, exhaustion, WEIGHT GAIN, memory loss, hair loss). I did a ton of research on Nattokinase. I am currently taking 200-300 mg. daily. My side effects have stopped and I'm slowly losing the 14 pounds I gained while on Coumadin for 6 weeks. Anyone else trying the natural approach?
Posted on 04/25/09, 02:07 pm
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Reply #21 - 04/29/09  4:58pm
" Hi everyone, I've read some of the posts in response to Yannabo in her asking about 'natural' applications in place of coumadin. Please understand, absolutely everyone needs to research information for them selves to make an educated decision for their own bodies and situations. We are all different. That being said, for those posts that I've read the natto to coumadin debate, to be clear for those who may be looking for something other than conventional medicine. Nattokinaise is NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR COUMADIN/WARFRIN-those meds are blood thinners acting on the vitamin K cascade. Nattokinaise is NOT even remotely touted as a BLOOD THINNER it is an agent to address the stickiness and fibrin in our platlets. If you research you will find that the Platelets are the beginning of the "ladder" with the clotting cascade farther down, 2 or 3 steps. So when you address the platelets it is a whole different subject than the clotting. Also, if you research you will find other products most widely know is bromalein, this product has had tests done-that were not paid for by drug companies there for thought to be of no consequence.

I have a sister 4 years younger than myself, who 20 years ago while on birth control developed a DVT in her leg. Fortunately it did not move-but it was there. She did do the coumadin for about 6 months but found that for her, the side affects and such were not acceptable. She has been on Bromalein and Natto for OVER 20 years and has not had ONE problem with her DVT. So for those who what to look at other alternatives to the situation, there are MANY people who have been successful using alternative medicine. For those who want to believe that conventional medicine is the only way to go, then thats fine, but don't speak of what you don't KNOW...

FINALLY, if you are looking for alternatives and they are out there and work very well, it is IMPARATIVE that you do not try to diagnose and treat yourself. These supplements are powerful and if you do not know how to use them correctly you are not going to help your situation. Research and find a WELL QUALIFIED NATUROPATHIC Dr.

For those who have a blood disorder like Factor V Leiden then there is a necessity to use the Vitamine K cascade to help block clotting, addressing the whole issue instead of just one gives me a whole lot more peace of mind.
Best to all. "
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Reply #22 - 04/29/09  4:59pm
" Sorry I meant Tannabo "
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Reply #23 - 04/29/09  6:13pm
" Hi Skottiesmom,

Thanks for the information. It was well balanced and thoughtful.

I am taking Bromalein in addition to: cinnamon bark, cayenne pepper, complete essential fatty acids, CoQ10, vit. D, vit.E, chickweed, bladderwrack,parsley, nettle, alfalfa, green tea, nattokinase and kelp

Some of these are to stimulate my thyroid which seemed to be sluggish when on Coumadin. Some of these are for blood thinning and some for breaking down the existing clots in my lung.

Thanks for sharing the story about your sister. That gives me hope.

Tanna "
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Reply #24 - 04/29/09  6:30pm
" Tanna, sounds like you've done your research. Glad to hear it. If you do have a blood disorder, the coumadin is probably something you will have to stay on. However, taking care of the PLATELETS is going to help in recovery as well as other ways. Natto does that. The bromo is also going to help, because it too does not address JUST one issue such as the coumadin which ONLY targets the liver to stop making vitamin k (Vitamin K cascade) I am glad to hear however that you have decided to start back on the coumadin at least until you know more about the blood disorder possibility.
take care "
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Reply #25 - 04/29/09  6:31pm
" I take natural rmedies for things or I used to until the warfarin so I'm not against it at all. I am new to the whole clot thing so if I get things wrong then feel free to correct me :o)

I know all clots are dangerous but surely it depends on the reason it happened and the severity of the clot if you'd risk taking something that isn't proven? I felt an initial excitement when I thought there may be a natural alternative to warfarin but I realised it's not an option for me.

I truly wish you all the luck in the world with your remedies but are you actually at risk of another clot? I read it as being due to surgery so there's not a likelihood of it happening again?
Same with your sister, Skottiesmum. If she came off the birth control then could it not just be the fact she isn't taking it that stopped her getting another clot rather than the nattokinase etc? I'm not criticising anyone's choice at all, just tyring to get it straight in my own head.

I agree with you Skottiesmum, we have to totally know what we're doing before we take anything :o)

Karen xx "
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Reply #26 - 04/29/09  6:36pm
" Skottiesmom,

I'm not back on Coumadin but I will meet with my hematologist next week to see what my blood test results are. I'll keep you posted.
Tanna "
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Reply #27 - 04/30/09  12:01am
" I recently checked out the supplement Nattokinase on one of the medical websites I access at work and came across this article.

Saturday, April 28, 2007
The nattokinase scam

A conversation about vitamin K2 commonly leads to confusion. Several people have asked about something called nattokinase.

The scientific data on the potential role of vitamin K2 deficiency in causing both osteoporosis and vascular calcification is fascinating. Along with vitamin D3, vitamin K2 may be an important factor in regulation of calcium metabolism. Supplementation may prove to be a major strategy for inhibition of vascular calcification.

Obtaining K2 in the diet is tricky, since it's present in just a handful of foods: egg yolks, liver, traditional cheeses, and natto. This is where the confusion starts.

Natto is a Japanese fermented soy product. I've had it and it's quite disgusting. Nonetheless, Japanese who eat natto experience less fracture. (A parallel study in heart disease has not been performed.) Natto is also a source of another substance called nattokinase.

Advocates (otherwise often known as supplement distributors) claim that nattokinase is a "fibrinolytic", or blood clot-dissolving, preparation that "improves blood flow, protects from blood clots, and prevents heart attacks and strokes."

Don't you believe it. This is patent nonsense. There are several problems with this rationale:

--Any oral fibrinolytic agent is promptly degraded in the highly acid environment of the stomach. That's why all medically used fibrinolytics are given intravenously. Drug companies have struggled for years to encapsulate, modify, or somehow protect protein (or polypeptide) products taken orally from degrading this way. They've never succeeded. That's why, for instance, growth hormone (a polypeptide) remains an injection, not an oral agent. An oral growth hormone, by the way, would sell like mad, so the drug companies would very much like to figure out how to bypass the degradative effects of stomach acid. One of the "researchers" behind the nattokinase claims boasts that he has single-handedly figured out how to protect the nattokinase molecule in the gastrointestinal tract. However, he won't tell anybody how he does it. Right.

--Fibrinolytic agents are extremely dangerous. In years past, we used to treat heart attacks with intravenous fibrinolytic agents like tissue plasminogen activator, urokinase, streptokinase, and others. They have fallen by the wayside, for the most part, because of limited effectiveness and the unavoidable dangers of their use. Fibrinolytics are "dumb": they dissolve blood clots in both good places and bad. While they might dissolve the blood clot causing your heart attack, they also degrade the tiny clot in your cerebral (brain) circulation that was protective. That's why fatal brain hemorrhages, bleeding stomach ulcers, and blood oozing from strange places can also occur with fibrinolytic administration. Believe me, I've seen it happen, and I've watched people die from them.

The idea that a small dose taken orally is healthy is ridiculous. Even if nattokinase worked, why the heck would you take an agent that has known dangerous and very real consequences?

Don't let this idiocy reflect poorly on the K2 conversation, which, I believe, holds real merit and is backed by legitimate science. This is symptomatic of a larger difficulty with the supplement industry: Insane and unfounded claims about one supplement erodes credibility for the entire industry. It gives regulation-crazed people like the FDA ammunition to go after supplements, something none of us need. You and I have to sift through the nonsense to uncover the real gems in this rockpile, real gems like vitamin D3, omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil, and, perhaps, vitamin K2. But not nattokinase. "
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Reply #28 - 04/30/09  7:58am
" Ferr,

The website you mention belongs to Dr. William Davis , a Cardiologist who practices in Wisconsin.

Tom in Connecticut "
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Reply #29 - 04/30/09  9:19am
" Thanks Tom, and I absolutely believe in what he has to say. "
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Reply #30 - 04/30/09  10:41am
" Everyone is entitled to read these posts and take from them what they want. HOWEVER, I think that opinions are all that is necessary. Posting information as fact when you dont have all of them is dangerous and misleading.

If you are a person who believes all that the medical community has to say (those who are PRACTICING medicine)then you will have difficulty accepting something outside of that box. It would be safe to say that 99.9% of all "testing" done on drugs has been sponsored by the drug companies, therefore a conflict of interest exists. In other words, they don't want there to be anything other than what they develope to work because they won't make any MONEY off of it. Conventional medicine looks ONLY at the symptoms. They are not trying to cure anything because if there was a CURE for cancer, they would no longer make the MILLIONS of dollars off it and the economy would colapse.

Obviously there are good things in conventional medicine, otherwise I would not be here right now. But that is not to say that they are all knowing. If anyone wants to get more information on Natto and its composition and PROVEN information here is a link with information that may interest you.
In the last post the information that was given is probably very accurate for the products that it also included. The composition of natto is different than all those spoken of. And the author of that article was a Physician-who gets paid by the drug companies AND only has been trained to treat the symptoms NOT THE WHOLE Body.
Again, yes you have to sift thru the nonesense and get to the REAL FACTS not just the ones that conventional medicine wants you to conclude...Just my opinion, not FACT. "

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