Multiple Sclerosis (MS) Support Group

Maybe I'm missing something...I don't get it. What is this? How can it help us?

well from what i gather--(ya need to read the stuff) dr zamboni beleives ms is caused from stenosis of the juggular vein--this stenosis-produces troublesome iron deposits in our brain

GOOD NEWS FOR US

It can be eliminated or great improvement with balloons and stents placed in the jugglar--

i beleive i read that every ms patient he tested has this stenosis--

Anomalous venous blood flow and iron deposition in multiple sclerosis

link to abstract

Quote:
Ajay Vikram Singh1 and Paolo Zamboni2

1Department of Physics, European School of Molecular Medicine (SEMM), IFOM-IEO Campus, Centro Interdisciplinare Materiali e Interfacce Nanostrutturati (CIMAINA), University of Milan, Milan, Italy
2Vascular Diseases Center, University of Ferrara, Ferrara, Italy
Correspondence: Professor P Zamboni, Director Vascular Diseases Center, University of Ferrara, Milan, Italy. E-mail: zmp@unife.it

Received 27 April 2009; Revised 27 July 2009; Accepted 29 July 2009; Published online 2 September 2009.

Abstract
Multiple sclerosis (MS) is primarily an autoimmune disorder of unknown origin. This review focuses iron overload and oxidative stress as surrounding cause that leads to immunomodulation in chronic MS. Iron overload has been demonstrated in MS lesions, as a feature common with other neurodegenerative disorders. However, the recent description of chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency (CCSVI) associated to MS, with significant anomalies in cerebral venous outflow hemodynamics, permit to propose a parallel with chronic venous disorders (CVDs) in the mechanism of iron deposition. Abnormal cerebral venous reflux is peculiar to MS, and was not found in a miscellaneous of patients affected by other neurodegenerative disorders characterized by iron stores, such as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. Several recently published studies support the hypothesis that MS progresses along the venous vasculature. The peculiarity of CCSVI-related cerebral venous blood flow disturbances, together with the histology of the perivenous spaces and recent findings from advanced magnetic resonance imaging techniques, support the hypothesis that iron deposits in MS are a consequence of altered cerebral venous return and chronic insufficient venous drainage.


This was the focus of Dr Haacke's presentation as well...he showed SWI MRI images of severe iron deposition and hypoxia (lack of oxygen) and loss of gray matter in the MS brain as measured by new technologies he has developed. Read his presentation again from my notes for further detail. Looks like Dr. Zamboni is sticking to this as the mechanism of injury in brain tissue, and after seeing Dr. Haacke's presentation, I understand why. And as we've been discussing for awhile here, this kind of injury can set the immune system off...but the reflux comes first.
cheer
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Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
dual stents placed 5/09
CCSVI in MS
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radeck
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Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the heads-up. I hope this paper will give some insight in the question of whether there is any causation between the iron and disease activity, or whether it is just a byproduct. Reminds me a little of the Aluminum-Altzheimer connection, which to the best of my knowledge at this point is just a correlation, not a causation. I posted this question as well in your "finalized notes" thread, sorry for the re-post here...
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jimmylegs
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Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:51 pm Post subject:
zinc status affects iron handling in the body. i've posted on this before here at TIMS.
on the oxidation concern, zinc improves liver function, which boosts uric acid, which is a powerful antioxidant.
zinc is low in ms. optimal is 18.2 umol/L.
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cheerleader
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:33 am Post subject:
Bump...
for those who missed it. Zamboni's new paper outlines his theory for mechanism of disease process in MS-and his order is:
1. CCSVI (congenital cerebral venous outflow abnormality)
2. iron deposition and oxygen deprivation into brain tissue
3. hypoxia and cellular death
4. Activation of immune system
cheer
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Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
dual stents placed 5/09
CCSVI in MS
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cheerleader
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:21 am Post subject:
You have to pay for the paper....BUT the figures and tables are public domain.

link
Figure 1 is the history of a lesion, showing how a vein sits at the center of each lesion, and a "streak of blood" surrounds the lesion.
Figure 2 shows the immune cascade which attacks myelin
Figure 3 shows the physiology of cerebral venous return
Figure 4 shows the venous stenosis being found
Figure 5 shows Collateral circles being formed
Figure 6 shows reflux mapping

Well worth a peek....shows how the pieces fit together-
cheer
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Husband dx RRMS 3/07
dx dual jugular vein stenosis (CCSVI) 4/09
dual stents placed 5/09
CCSVI in MS
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jimmylegs
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:49 am Post subject:
http://www.jbc.org/content/283/8/5...
Zinc Deficiency-induced Iron Accumulation, a Consequence of Alterations in Iron Regulatory Protein-binding Activity, Iron Transporters, and Iron Storage Proteins*
One consequence of zinc deficiency is an elevation in cell and tissue iron concentrations.

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth...
Treatment of symptomatic heterozygous aceruloplasminemia with oral zinc sulphate
Aceruloplasminemia is an autosomal recessive and phenotypically primarily neurodegenerative disease caused by a homozygous mutation of the ceruloplasmin gene. The absence of ceruloplasmin and its ferroxidase activity leads to pathological iron overload in the brain and other organs. While heterozygous carriers of ceruloplasmin gene mutations have been believed to be asymptomatic, a number of cases with neurological deficits have recently been described. To date, an effective treatment has not been established for either aceruloplasminemia or symptomatic heterozygous aceruloplasminemia. The present report concerns the beneficial treatment of an 18-year-old girl with extrapyramidal and cerebellar-mediated movement disorder caused by a heterozygous mutation of the ceruloplasmin gene using oral zinc sulphate.
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mrhodes40
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:54 am Post subject:
This is wonderful, wow see that great table showing the similarities between CVI and MS lesions.... It is stunning. Remember that CVI is a proven venous disease, so these similarities are more than academic.

I added these both to the research link.......
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I am not offering medical advice, I am just a patient too! (clickable)Bilateral jugular stents for severe jugular blockage 80-90% at Stanford may 19 '09
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:06 am Post subject:
I have the full paper. I don't have the ability to host it on line, but if you would like a copy, please PM me.
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radeck
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:55 am Post subject:
Now that I'm reading the paper I'm a bit more confused about the role iron plays in all this. I.e. is it simply deposited while the immune-system is trying to clean up the mess or is it exacerbating the problem? I know I mentioned this before, but the authors explicitly state that "iron is instrumental in myelination and oligodendrocyte development", something direly needed in an MS brain.

Also, I don't follow the logic of the EAE example, because if CCSVI is true the relationship between EAE and MS is shallow at best. Iron is essential in building cells, so could is simply be that the immune-cells responding to immunization with myelin protein in EAE can not be built as effectively in anemic animals?

If anybody can help me out in the decision process of whether I should blood-let or not, that would be great

I suppose one other reason to loose a bit of blood every once in a while is that this also gets rid of 10% or so of the harmful T and B cells that exacerbate early MS. Now that I think about this I'm actually surprised that nobody has looked into this: phlebotomy as a means of treating relapsing-remittent MS. This could at least in principle be more effective than plasma exchange, which only gets rid of bad antibodies. This is way off topic, and I'm sure it doesn't work because it seems to obvious for nobody to have tried it...
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mrhodes40
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:08 am Post subject:
With regards to iron, I don't know about bloodletting but the main points of the paper seem to me to be
1. The trigger for the auto-immune attack in MS is unknown, but in EAE an induced autoimmune disease deficient levels protect against damage.

(I think what this means is that an immune attack in the brain, induced by EAE or not, has iron as a role of the injury to tissue)

(It appears to me that what they mean by auto immune is simply activation of immune cells against self antigens...even if the cells in question were damaged and such attack is "normal" vs the kind of auto immune attack in EAE where the immune system is set up to attack HEALTHY tissue. An important difference, but they seem to be calling all immune activity against self antigens, healthy or not, "autoimmune".)

2. the initial trigger causes the immune system to come in and primarily attack oligodendrocytes.

3. iron may be that trigger; it has been shown that blood leaks out at times of relapse (perivascular extravasation).

Also the iron is itself attractive to macrophages--they are drawn to it and there is research showing macrophages filled with iron in MS. Macrophages devour dead tissue and foreign bodies...and the body always recycles iron because it is important for many physiological activities. So the immune system is the way the body does this iron recycling, it is a "prime directive" so to speak...conserve iron.

this process produces gamma interferon which is the MAIN thing that causes degeneration of the nerves. Ordinarily, the t cells are induced to die when they come in contact with gam. int., BUT in the presence of iron, the cells do NOT die, they hang around and cause more clean up and "standby damage"...like the fact that gamma interferon is a normal part of this process but it degenerates nerves. Those poor nerves do not have a chance with the iron having leaked in there.

Those are the main points as they pertain to iron, very watered down and simplified as I understand them.
marie
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Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:35 am Post subject:
The paper is now available for download at:

http://youriluken.homestead.com/mu...
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Sawdoggie
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:48 am Post subject:
I saw the doctor who has been seeing me for hemochromatosis for the past ten years yesterday and he was extremely interested in this article. He even asked if it would be OK if he shared my case with some friends who are neurologists and hematologists to get their opinions and discuss it (my neuro is neutral on the matter so far, maybe my hemo doctor can puch him to look a little closer as he does want to talk with him). He even wondered aloud if phlebotomy has ever been looked at as a therapy for MS. Basically, my ferritin level is very high but all of my other blood work is fine including iron saturation which is not a normal presentation for hemochromatosis. Also, when I first started phlebotomy a slid dangerously anemic which, in his words, I am the only hemochromatosis patient that he has seen that with. To back up my original diagnosis, I did have a liver biopsy done about ten years ago and it showed a lot of accumulated iron (but thankfully no damage) which is highly indicitive of hemochromatosis. This article suggests that the ferritin levels can be elevated due to MS which I was diagnosed with this past spring. I just finished giving blood for a genetics test for hemochromatosis and should have my results in a week or so. If that is negative, I could possibly be a good case for ferritin as a marker of MS disease activity as when I first went to the doctor ten years ago, it was because I felt extremely fatigued, foggy, etc. (this first signs of MS?). After a fairly intense phlebotomy regimen (1 unit every two weeks for almost a year), my ferritin levels were in the low normal range, I was basically anemic, and I felt much better. Did removing the iron (which I became somewhat lax about the past few years) stop any progression for a while until the levels came back up? I had a number of nonenhancing leisions when I was MRI'd this spring which suggests that I have had MS for a while. This is especially interesting if my hemochromatosis tests come back negative. If they are positive, maybe the hemochromatosis is a exacerbating factor that when coupled with CCSVI (which I should know about my status there in the not too distant future) is enough to start the CNS damage cascade. Either way, I'll be back on the "every two week blood letting" starting this week to drop the ferritin to safe levels. It is too bad the blood bank throws it all away due to the Betaseron. Looking at my case in particular, this article makes a lot of sense and ties together a number of loose ends.
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jay123
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:23 am Post subject:
i have wondered about this for a while. my uncle died of hemachromatosis a number of years ago. my father (and the other brothers) all then had to have the genetic test. my father came back negative so i did not end up getting tested.
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Sawdoggie
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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:30 am Post subject:
jay123 wrote:
i have wondered about this for a while. my uncle died of hemachromatosis a number of years ago. my father (and the other brothers) all then had to have the genetic test. my father came back negative so i did not end up getting tested.


As parents can be carriers and not have it, it is worth getting checked, especially if it is anywhere in your family.
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if you are interested in this theory and treatment look over above link--and all the discussions--some at thisisms.com have had the procedure preformed--

ms- oxygen deprivation?
Posted on 10/05/09, 06:10 am
Hi,

I'm Bob, a health educator from Centennial, CO. Where I'm from is very important as you'll see.

Six plus years ago my ex-wife was diagnosed with MS and now my girlfriend has found out she has the disease. So (once again) I find myself for the last 3-4 months hitting the internet and published sources for everything I can find on Multiple Sclerosis. In that period as I read, I came up with 13 questions that seemed very important to me. While noticing that your forum officially lists MS as "autoimmune", my questions don't seem to point in that direction. I welcome any comment or criticism by any informed or experienced individuals . . . Thanks.


My Top 13 Vital Questions about Multiple Sclerosis:

1. Why is Colorado the highest incident U.S. state?
2. Why is Colorado Springs the highest incident large city in the highest incident state?
3. Why do women suffer from MS at a rate of 2-4 times greater than men do?
4. Why is MS less prevalent on the coasts?
5. Why is MS far more prevalent per capita in urban settings than in rural areas?
6. Central Nervous System Dilators pioneered as an MS treatment during the 1950�s by Bayard Horton of the Mayo Clinic were apparently quite successful with few or no side effects in relieving acute attacks promptly and often prevented progression? Why?
7. MRI examinations today frequently depict a lack of correlation between symptoms and lesions in MS (often called the �clinico-radiological paradox). What�s going on? If demyelination really is the fundamental essential lesion in multiple sclerosis, why is there often no correlation?
8. Trials of sex hormones show they improve lesions as well as symptoms and L-arginine, zinc and magnesium supplements also seem to lesson symptoms. Why?
9. What role do deficiencies of endothelial and neuronal nitric oxide and elevated levels of inducible nitric oxide play in MS? Is this symptomatic or causal?
10. Is better detection the only reason MS incidence has risen so dramatically in the last 40 years, or is some environmental factor exacerbating the situation?
11. What about the �brain leak� theory of MS? Free hemoglobin scavenges nitric oxide avidly, which may create deficiencies especially in the central nervous system, with its greater vasodilator tone. Could depletion of endothelial nitric oxide shift blood from the arterial circulation to the venous circulation in MS sufferers as in diabetics? Could multiple sclerosis result from too little blood in arteries and arterioles leading to vasospastic symptoms? Meanwhile could too much blood in veins and venules lead to blood-brain barrier leakage and lesions?
12. Is there any logical reason for continued loyalty by many to the idea that MS is an anti-immune condition or are we just following the "latest fad?"
13. Is there one over-arching theory that might explain all these factors?


Discussion:

An obvious main or, at least, exacerbating factor seems to jump out from the first six questions: OXYGEN! The clearest correlation for Question #1 is that high altitude = lower oxygen levels. Colorado is the state with the highest average altitude among the 50 states. As far as Question #2, Colorado Springs, the 49th largest city in the country, is easily the highest large metropolitan area in the country roughly 750 ft. (14%) higher than �Mile-High� Denver.

Question #3, Women�s bodies and their unique chemistry may make them far more vulnerable than men to MS for any number of reasons. For now, however, let�s explore the OXYGEN HYPOTHESIS more deeply. Women tend to be smaller and society encourages female physical fitness far less than it does male activity so generally speaking females are less efficient VO max processors than men. Additionally, hemoglobin and iron are more problematical in females during their menses which makes females more likely prey for anemia, again potentially lessening oxygen-use efficiency.

Question #4, the coasts, are by definition, found at sea level hence, lower than 99.99% of the inland areas of the country with more oxygen available. Additionally, coastal diet is far more likely to include fish with its attendant fish oil (deficiencies implicated in Alzheimer�s, high blood pressure and heart attacks) which aids in oxygen processing.

Question #5, people in rural areas are less likely to face high levels of air pollution (smog) than city dwellers. In particular: diesel fumes, ground level ozone contamination and INHALED nitric oxide contamination are brutal every day facts of life in our largest cities. (By the way: INHALED nitric oxide is confusing in many respects to the layman. A. it is NOT nitrous oxide (laughing gas) once used as anesthetic. B. Our bodies naturally create nitric oxide and it is one of the most important gases found in our blood stream (as reflected in the Nobel Prize for Medicine awarded to Dr. Louis Ignarro) which we will discuss later as it relates to MS. C. Many people realize that nitric oxide is also an important negative component of tobacco smoke. In any case, the obvious effect of air pollution is less oxygen allowed to reach the lungs, heart, brain and every cell of the human body than one would expect from clear, pure country air.

Question #6, Peter Good�s thought-provoking website has been instrumental in my dealing with these questions. According to him between 1946 and 1959, more than 3000 patients with multiple sclerosis and other demyelinating diseases were treated with the CNS vasodilator histamine diphosphate at the Multiple Sclerosis Clinic of St. Joseph Hospital in Tacoma, Washington. Most of them improved, some quite dramatically. Today�s �fashion� calls for different meds with greater potential for dangerous side effects. CNS vasodilation has largely been dropped despite the fact that it worked. CNS vasodilation with histamine not only consistently relieved a disease now thought to be incurable, it thereby demonstrated that its fundamental lesion may be something entirely different from demyelination.

Peter Good goes on to say that on �March 28, 1996, host Robert Stack of television's Unsolved Mysteries related the story of Mary Clamser of Oklahoma City, a multiple sclerosis patient for 23 years. Mrs. Clamser had relapsing-remitting MS, the most common form among women; her left leg and her bladder were most affected. Each attack lasted no longer than six months, until an attack in 1992 left her unable to walk without assistance.

�On August 17, 1994, a sudden thunderstorm passed over Mrs. Clamser's house. She was in her wheelchair, preparing a bath. As she reached out to turn on the water, a bolt of lightning struck the house. Doctors estimate that at least ten thousand volts of electricity passed through her body. At first she felt "on fire" she said, full of "pins and needles." Then she suddenly realized she could feel her legs again. Since that day, improvement of her multiple sclerosis was rapid. Two years later, she was living a completely normal life. "All symptoms of her multiple sclerosis," said Robert Stack, "are gone."

This is not, of course, the first report of an affliction reversed by lightning. But the symptoms of multiple sclerosis are believed to be caused by disintegration of the insulating myelin sheaths surrounding nerve fibers in the brain and spinal cord. How a bolt of lightning could restore these insulating layers rapidly--if at all--can hardly be imagined. The obvious implication is that demyelination is not the only cause of multiple sclerosis symptoms.

Something else must be happening in the brain and spinal cord of these persons--something far more reversible than demyelination.� Indeed, my read on Peter Good is that one is left with the very strong impression from Mrs. Clamser�s experience that demyelination is only a symptom and not the cause of MS at all (kind of like finding that cleft palate when operated upon early left a victim who was not a "retarded basket case who would never learn to speak"; and finding that "Mongoloid idiocy" was NOT a NECESSARY part of Mongoloidism but just a nasty side effect related to the victim's inability to process oxygen which, because the brain is the biggest user of oxygen was tragic -- today occasionally a Mongoloid child will be the valedictorian of his/her high school). And as far as CNS vasodilation? Well if it worked, why quit it for other methods with greater attendant side effects? In any case, lightning doesn�t rule out oxygen and dilating blood vessels surely must have as an agreeable side effect: greater oxygen carrying capacity for each cell of the brain, no?
Furthermore, if some �transient reversible factor is a major contributor to MS and is electrical, one clue may be the "night-walker phenomenon" many patients report. Late at night, these patients can get out of their wheelchairs and walk without canes or crutches. One woman nearly blind said she had normal sight every night around midnight. Patients who kept track of these episodes report they feel particularly free when radio static is absent. One Montana man who often drove from city to city late at night said that when he could tune in distant radio stations without static, he could walk for miles down the road. When there was long-distance static, he could "hardly hobble about." Undoubtedly this is some transient factor at work, but not the kind of transient factor neurologists usually associate with this disease.� In other words, MS has not been figured out, so why rule out anything?

Having said that let�s jump ahead to Question #12, Is there any logical reason for continued loyalty by many to the idea that MS is an anti-immune condition? In my humble opinion, AIDS and MS are two diseases that will NEVER be understood until the words �auto-immune� are dropped completely from the physicians� vocabulary. For the past 50 years medical people have ASSUMED the most complex possible scenario: autoimmunity as the underlying truth about MS without once showing that a simpler cause (suggested by the successes of CNS vasodilators) could be ruled out. As a result we regard MS today as incurable because its primary lesion is thought to be relatively irreversible disintegration of myelin sheaths in the brain and spinal cord.

Neurologists who successfully treated MS with vasodilators thought the lesion was REVERSIBLE because the underlying cause � a diminished blood supply in the brain and cord (leading to oxygen lack there) was treatable. Because of the autoimmune assumption, workable theories and workable treatments (and cures?) have been relegated to the trash heap.

Question #7, since MRI results seem NOT to show continued and progressive demyelination as the fundamental and unvarying effect of MS and they don�t rule out oxygen as a key factor, we can continue to keep an open mind toward blood and oxygen as the fundamental truth of the disease. Lest anyone decide that I�m seeking oversimplification of a complex problem . . . Siblerud and Kienholz (1994) compared red blood cell concentrations and hemoglobin levels of MS patients who had their mercury amalgam dental fillings removed against blood values of MS patients who retained their amalgam fillings:

MS subjects with amalgams were found to have significantly lower levels of red blood cells, hemoglobin and hematocrit compared to MS subjects with amalgam removal.... The MS amalgam group had significantly higher blood urea nitrogen and lower serum IgG.... A health questionnaire found that MS subjects with amalgams had significantly more (33.7%) exacerbations during the past 12 months compared to the MS volunteers with amalgam removal. Obviously, while we�re still talking about the blood�s ability to deliver oxygen . . . every indication is that a wide variety of toxins and negative effects might stimulate that same over-arching undesirable effect. Indeed, several investigators have preferred psycho-somatic causes as the underlying truth about MS referring to an �MS Personality� created in response to living in a family with a tyrannical father, obliging mother, and atmosphere of strongly emphasized sex taboos and exceedingly great guilt and fear. Perhaps there's a modicum of truth to this, perhaps not. The specific trigger may vary from case to case, but the indications are that oxygen and blood hold the key to understanding MS.

Let�s talk about autoimmunity more directly. Just as in AIDS, the possibility that the immune system is responding to an agent like a virus is countered by the reality that no such agent has ever been identified nor transmitted to any animal or human. Retrovirus, where art thou????? In truth, endogenous retroviruses have not yet been proven to play any causal role in this disease; and likely never will.

According to PO Behan and A Chaudhuri of Glasgow University, together with BO Roep of Leiden University (2002). The pathogenesis of multiple sclerosis revisited threw down the gauntlet to MS researchers everywhere by contending there is little support for contemporary views that multiple sclerosis is an immunological disease. And not surprisingly, there is little benefit from treatments based on this misconception:

In this review, they suggested that MS is not an autoimmune disease due to its intrinsic clinical, immunological, radiological and histological differences with ADEM [acute disseminated encephalomyelitis] and its experimental model, EAE [experimental allergic encephalomyelitis]. In their opinion, MS has the characteristics of a metabolically determined neurodegenerative disorder with strong genetic influence....

In recent years, most researchers have uncritically accepted the hypothesis that it is an autoimmune disorder, despite this Multiple sclerosis remains a disease of unknown aetiology. An in-depth review of the literature failed to support this concept, and the immunological claims for this disease are tenuous and fragile.... The proposition that MS is a prototype autoimmune disease is weak and open to question: MS is not a model of EAE or, indeed, of any known autoimmune disease. Its histology compares more favorably with other forms of demyelination known to be metabolic in aetiology .... Many scholars of MS in the past have argued strongly that the disease is toxic/metabolic in origin.... Clinical trials are, however, in abundance: a rise from 50 such papers in 1965 to more than 300 by the year 2000. This has been described by some as reflecting 'the sense of excitement in the field of MS therapeutics', but is regarded by us as a sad reflection of the gullibility of researchers in accepting an unproven hypothesis.... The enormous number of trials based on putative immunosuppression and immunoregulatory mechanisms has singularly failed to show a cure or to convey major benefits to MS patients in addition subjecting them to an increased morbidity and mortality.... I have read much of the literature on immune-modifying therapy in MS and it is clear that none of these agents can qualify as a candidate therapy under scrutiny. (Behan et al. 2002)

Question #8, again brings up questions of gender. Women get MS more often and earlier and its path is less likely to be predictable and progressive compared to male victims. Some success has been had treating with either or both male and female hormones. L-arginine creates nitric oxide in the blood which dilates blood vessels. Zinc and magnesium are under-appreciated nutrients which play vital roles in human health. Again, The specific trigger for MS may vary from case to case, but the indications are that oxygen and blood hold the key to understanding MS and certainly there is no outright refutation for that idea to be found in this question.

Question #9 and 11 are best answered and best understood together through the insights of Peter Good: � Two signs that endothelial nitric oxide may be chronically depleted in multiple sclerosis are that patients tend to be very heat-sensitive, and their platelets are sticky. Sensitivity to stress may reveal depletion of the parasympathetic transmitter neuronal nitric oxide. Other reasons to suspect endothelial nitric oxide depletion in multiple sclerosis are apparent deficiencies of sex hormones, magnesium, and zinc. Estrogen, testosterone via estrogen, and magnesium all utilize endothelial nitric oxide, the primary endogenous vasodilator, to relax vascular smooth muscle. Endothelial and neuronal nitric oxide synthases are zinc enzymes. Another reason to suspect nitric oxide depletion is the likelihood that abnormal red blood cells--large, osmotically fragile, spiny, less deformable, and agglutinated--are hemolyzing in blood vessels. Free hemoglobin scavenges nitric oxide avidly, which may create deficiencies especially in the central nervous system, with its greater vasodilator tone. If depletion of endothelial nitric oxide shifts blood from the arterial circulation to the venous circulation, as it does in diabetics, the most parsimonious explanation of multiple sclerosis might be that too little blood in arteries and arterioles leads to vasospastic symptoms, while too much blood in veins and venules leads to blood-brain barrier leakage and lesions.�

Question #10, is easily dealt with, in principle the last 40 years have seen a precipitous rise in all manner of environmental toxins. Polluted foods (steroids in meats, for example), medical side effects, residential toxins (such as arising from carpet liners, asbestos, etc., etc., ad nauseum), and just plain stress all could easily be regarded as potential triggers setting in motion the conditions leading to diminished blood and oxygen to the brain and spinal cord.

Question #13 (Is there one over-arching theory that might explain all these factors?) In answering the previous 12 questions we have laid the groundwork for believing �Perhaps, perhaps NOT, but there is one overarching theory that holds great potential as the candidate that (finally) holds the key to understanding MS: a theory of insufficient blood and oxygen to the spinal cord and brain.
Rajjpuut

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Re: Overview, Types, Incidence
by Truth Seeker on Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:36 pm

Would it not stand to reason, that demyelination would cause electrical nerves to spin in a human system which consists mostly of water and consequently the results would be disastrous.
Demyelination obviously occurs when the system is overloaded and overheats, but the speed of destruction would be based upon counter clock spinning which naturally is not the creative way.
Overheating naturally would make nerve tissue very dry and hard, no longer pliable.
Delaminated nerves obviously respond very differently to light, natural or artificial.
High speed spinning nerves can easily become entrapped, expand, shift, knot, collide, cross wire and vibrate, which in turn would affect frequencies.
I believe that the result of vision changes is do to Mercury rising.
Truth Seeker

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Oxygen-deprivation theory of MS revisited
by Rajjpuut on Sun May 17, 2009 5:25 am

Before adding a bit more support to the 13 questions and their implicit oxygen-deprivation theory of MS, let me respond to Truth Seeker's comments, if they can be considered such.

Truth Seeker is obviously not what his name suggests because: A) there�s no direct response to any of the 13 questions raised above B) He assumes the demyelization myth is true, but offers no proof C) He makes no comment at all about cellular oxygen-deprivation in the etiology of MS D) He makes no comment upon the underlying theme of the article above that �auto-immunity� theory has no foundation, while there is indeed a strong basis for including oxygen-deprivation in the etiology of MS E) By not challenging the �auto-immune� hocus-pocus or supporting it, TS is, in effect giving aid and succor to a nihilistic medical theory (after all if the body�s just attacking itself, we really can�t cure it, can we? We can only prescribe expensive drugs to alleviate symptoms with, of course, a whole host of nasty or even life-threatening side effects (as we do unceasingly with MS, AIDS, rheumatoid arthritis, and to a lesser extent with lupus and lyme diseases) F) He offers no satisfying counter theory to explain well-documented but infrequent cases where lightning strikes have entirely reversed MS which doesn�t seem to fit with the idea of demyelization or auto-immunity but perhaps might be explained a t a cellular level with each cell�s response to the electrical onslaught being an immediate improvement in oxygen processing ability G)and as to the great bulk of his writing, it appears, well, if you can�t say anything nice . . . .

Anyway returning to the oxygen-hypothesis of MS causation, there are numerous papers in European journals about the usage of extremely diluted (3 drops in an 8 ounce glass of distilled water) �food-grade" hydrogen peroxide in countering early-stage MS. Since hydrogen peroxide is a naturally-occurring substance in the body that stimulates oxygen supply at the cellular level, perhaps Europeans are on to something cheap and effective that actually cures MS, while here in America we�re merely content to throw expensive drugs at it without ever curing anybody??
Rajjpuut

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Re: Overview, Types, Incidence
by Truth Seeker on Sun May 17, 2009 2:56 pm

Rajjpuut,

You clearly tried to insult me but life is to short to take such comments seriously.

In your very, very long post there was only one thing that jumped out immediately and that was Mrs. Clamer's story which I believe 100%.
You also mentioned "reversal" but it is clear that you do not understand what is involved with reversals.
Reversals have everything to do with DNA, electrical impulses, memory age 0-3 and depending on the internal damage, memory can reverse based upon genetic memory, which clearly is another story indeed.
We all know of course that diseases vary from region to region, but there is a very simple explanation for that, it has everything to do with the minerals to be found in those regions.
History clearly indicates, that all medical knowledge began with the study of metallurgy's.
The answers to complex questions will not be found in the future, because they are linked to the past.
Why do you rely so heavily on other peoples findings, if their findings were correct, these post would no longer be necessary.
It is no secret that we use only a very small portion of our brain, but that should lead us to ask, what would we find if we could tap into its dormant resources.
The brain obviously would not provide us with useless medical terminologies, but it would provide us with photo images which by far surpass the best MRI anywhere to be found on this planet, now or in the future.
Phenomenons do happen and they happen to people, but because they are rare, they usually are not taken seriously enough.
Just for clarification, I am female not male.
Any further communication would not be appreciated do to your previous comments.
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Re: Overview, Types, Incidence
by Rajjpuut on Sun May 24, 2009 3:46 pm

One thing that gets much too little emphasis when talking about particular diseases or ailments are the general guidelines that bring about health, fitness, and longevity, since they surely magnify in importance when you already are victimized by MS or other health problems. Here's the full story of that approach and where it came from:

rajjpuutsfolly.blogtownhall.com/20...
Rajjpuut

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MS Patients Victimized by AMA
by Rajjpuut on Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:26 am

Hello ALL,


My name is Bob, I'm a health educator. Be forewarned, in one of my links, I'll attack a section of this otherwise fine website's definition of Multiple Sclerosis. This website is not the problem, the problem I'm addressing is the American Medical Association's cavalier attitude that assigns patients en masse into "incurable" categories and is more interested in protecting some doctors' boats and second-homes than it is in the welfare of patients. Since MS is a disease that attacks women over men in a 70-30 ratio, it is only right that MS be the focal point of this illumination of the scope of the problem here at this website.

Here are two links that I'll refer to in the next paragraph:

robertringer.com/status-quo.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmune_d...#Autoimmune_diseases

Whenever debates about health care emerge, you're bound to hear: "We Americans have the greatest health care delivery system in the world," which is not only a lie but pure jingoistic nonsense. As a health educator, I can tell you without a doubt, Americans have one of the most unwieldy, least effective and the most expensive health care systems in the industrialized world. Visit the top link to hear what a famous voice (seven best-selling non-fiction books) who does know something about health care has to say about why that is . . .

The AMA is the Spanish Inquisition of the 20th and 21st Century. They define orthodox medicine and they define heresy. They perpetually side with the most invasive, most expensive and least effective medical procedures and the most expensive drugs with the most side-effects. For example, the AMA has been backing cholesterol reduction as the be-all, end-all for heart attack prevention for over 40 years even though less than 47% of the people who die from heart attacks have high cholesterol. 47%!!!! That's not "cause and effect," that's less than a coin-flip. But the AMA, in league with our unaccountable pharmaceutical companies, have pushed these dangerous concoctions despite knowledge that a "high-cholesterol/heart attack link is a MYTH pure and simple and that the side-effects from taking these medicines can be horrendous.

Talking more directly about MS: the AMA created a list of about 60 diseases which they say are caused by problems with the body's immune systems (2nd link above) and called them all "auto-immune diseases" which means they are all in a practical sense incurable and again we set up the patient to A. not be cured B. told he/she must subscribe to a lifetime regimen with very dangerous and expensive drugs. The Mayo Clinic in the 40's and 50's cured people of Multiple Sclerosis (MS) but now the AMA prefers more expensive and dangerous MS medications that do not cure anything (in the AMA's defense, it must be admitted that some of them do attack the symptoms admirably but none deals directly with the disease itself). In Europe they surprisingly do not have much interest in calling diseases "auto-immune" or "incurable" and not surprisingly they sometimes cure people of MS with comparatively inexpensive resources and minimal side-effects.

Medicine is a science, or should be, with a bit of art thrown in. The AMA, however, much like the Church in condemning Galileo, believes its authority is the final say. The scientific method starts with asking the right questions and pursuing them wherever they lead, not with relying on anyone's authority, least of all a hidebound entity like the AMA. Despite efforts in Europe and here in the United States to examine these diseases more scientifically, the AMA clings to auto-immunity as the final word. Here's a link that will convince any thinking person that there are MS questions we must resolve:

forum.neurologychannel.com/hc-foru...

Questions, not appeals to authority, are the foundation of science and medical technology and appropriate medical practice. DO NOT listen to the AMA's "version" of the MS story until they first explore these obviously appropriate questions. Good luck! Here's to YOUR HEALTH!

Live long, strong and ornery,
Bob
Rajjpuut

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Re: Overview, Types, Incidence
by Truth Seeker on Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:42 pm

Wow.....now you are talking my language.

I agree 100% that medicine is a science or should be, with a bit of art thrown in, but most importantly
one of your sentences mirrors what I believe in so strongly.
" The scientific method starts with asking the right questions and pursuing them wherever they lead, not with relying on anyone's authority."

This sentence in my very strong opinion is the "KEY"

The answers to scientific questions, will not be found in the future, because they are laying dormant in the past.

Keep up the good work.

Best regards

Truth Seeker
Truth Seeker

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Re: Overview, Types, Incidence
by BarbaraC on Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:40 pm

Just to add my experience: I never lived in the U.S. west until I moved to Colorado Springs in 1996. While there, in 1998, my feet became totally numb and have been ever since. The test for diabetes was negative so I have been living and ignoring the feet since then. I moved away in 2000.

I recently found out by chance that I have multiple sclerosis through a brain MRI. As I put together living in Colorado Springs, feeling incredibly tired off and on ever since then, and being a lifelong shallow breather, I think you may be onto something regarding oxygen.

Would ingesting of additional oxygen help, then?
BarbaraC

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Re: Overview, Types, Incidence
by sublyme9 on Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:14 am

I'm wondering, if oxygen is the answer - why is it that MS is usually diagnosed in people in their twenties? Is there a critical age when oxygen is more or less important to our CNS? Or does it just take that long for a chronic oxygen deficiency to manifest as MS symptoms? And why is it that moving out of Colorado Springs doesn't completely reverse the disease?

I don't think it is as simple as taking deeper breaths of oxygen. The genetic factor must influence the body to not use oxygen efficiently, resulting in a deficiency of nitric oxide. Some deficiencies, like in certain forms of anemia, can be managed by taking supplements, but as in type 2 diabetes, it's not a lack of insulin that creates a problem but a malfuction of the insulin receptor. Perhaps MS is similar to diabetes mellitus in that for some people, their bodies cannot use the oxygen they have properly, while in others the disease is caused by chronically not getting enough (or a sufficient quality) of oxygen from the environment.

Has anyone looked at the prevalence of MS cases in athletes? Or the diets and lifestyles of MS patients compared to a control? Bob, I think you may be onto something here...
Reply to this discussion topic http://www.dailystrength.org/group...

Thanks so much for this discussion and the new links. Something to remember is that very very few diseases have a single cause that results in disease for every person who suffers it. Multi-factorial: there will be genetic factors in MS, personal history factors and maybe lifestyle factors. I still do not understand why diet makes such a huge difference in symptoms.

That said, I am following these developements as closely as I can.

Wow, thanks! Really interesting...but still, I doubt I have too much iron. I've been anemic my entire life. :(

hum--this theory has nothing to do with too much iron--that is not the prob--i think his theory is the backup of blood from the stenosed artery--causes bad iron deposits in your brain--i am not a doc-and struggle with all the medical terminology

but you can still be anemic and have these iron deposits

and if my feeble mind is reading it right --the harmful iron deposits--cause oxegyn deprivation in our brains--i think the drs claim that this oxygen deprivation causes most of the problems suffered by ms patients

Wow! Well, I guess it's a definite possibility, I mean nothing is really known for sure about what's wrong with us--so anything is fair game as far as treatments go. thanks for this! Really interesting stuff!