Codependency Support Group

HI Boomer,

In my humble opinion, you are asking the wrong questions!!

In each of your questions, you are asking for directions about how to get someone else to change. You cannot change anyone but yourself. With your permission, I would like to reframe your questions to set you up for success:

How can I clearly and cleanly show that I am serious about my need to be respected as a separate individual from my boyfriend:?

>Mean what you say and say what you mean
>If you are shown disrspect, state clearly and calmly that when "you did x and y, I felt ____, because I need to feel that I am respected by you. In the future, would you consider ______________";
>If you are shown disrespect after you ask for what you need, explain what the consequences will be if it happens again and follow through.

2. How do I maintain boundaries and show that respecting my boundaries by him is important to me?

Use the same formula as above.

The key here is that you cannot "get" him to do anything. Melodie Beattie wisely said that when we find ourselves trying to hard to make someone else understand something about us, it means we have not been willing to fully understand and accept that very thing about ourselves. WE are the ones who need to mean business about our need for respect, regardless of whether or not anyone else does. If they do not, we walk away.

Bravo, Grace. Boomer, I wish you the strength and clarity you need to be strong and find your "voice" in asking for what you need in relationship.

Thanks to the both of you.

Grace1954--I had just spoken to a woman who has several years of recovery from my Coda meeting and she supports me in how I'm feeling.

She said the same thing as you about respecting myself and boundaries.

He told me last night, "stop telling me I'm pushy and dominating--how do I know you just aren't too sensitve and being dramatic."

He is verbally abusive. I didn't know that's what it was but I knew it didn't feel good and have been trying to get him to change since I met him a 1 1/2 ago.

Verbal abuse is so common to me and when he covers it up with a hug and kiss afterwards or nice words--I see it as better than one I was used to.

In the past, I've felt guilty and feared being alone when I'd go to stand up for myself and I crumble when he exerts his power.

So true, codependents want to be taken seriously but don't take themselves seriously so how can anybody else?

Thank you for your support and advice.

Just a curious thought. How are you defining "verbal abuse". Were you referencing in your last post ("stop telling me I'm pushy and dominating--how do I know you just aren't too sensitve and being dramatic?")/

I hope when you define verbal abuse, you are referring to name calling, degrading words, threatening or assaultive language, because as recovering codependents, it is my experience that in the early years, we swing from one side of the pendulum accepting ANYTHING to hang on to the relationship, to the other equally harmful side, accepting NOTHING that we don't agree with.

With the proper definition of abuse, we can be certain that we walk away from abuse but learn to grow from the things or words we hear that may be uncomfortable and even disturbing, but not abusive.

Therapists, sponsors and good self-help books can help us find the balance as we evaluate the behavior of others.

We bicker back and forth about what we don't like in each other, wanting each other to change instead of stating what we want need and won't tolerate. Which--I never new how to do.

I haven't been paying attention to how I feel when he talks to me the way he does. I'm not comfortable and grow very anxious.

He doesn't validate how I feel. And then tries to outwit me/undermine me and convince me differently.

For how long it has gone on, both times we were together (I didn't know what was happening then) I don't feel emotionally safe with him and am afraid to approach him and he wonders why. That's when he throws the "too sensitive" at me. Well maybe, he's just not sensitive enough for me.

I'll deal with things differently between him and I from now on. I need to change and am becoming more clearer everyday thanks to my recovery efforts and advice.

Verbal Abuse

Verbal abuse is the use of language to manipulate, control, ridicule, insult, humiliate, belittle, vilify, and show disrespect and disdain to another, and is often a component of other types of abuse. Verbal Abuse is not recognized and is poorly understood by the therapeutic community. Verbal Abuse is comprised of any of the following:

* Accusing / Blaming
Accusing and blaming another for ones own outbursts, expressions of anger, bad moods, mistakes, and failures. Example: "If you were'nt so lazy, forgetful, sloppy, and inattentive, I wouldn't get so mad!"

* Covert / Subtle
Seemingly sincere, expressed in a loving and concerned manner, but placing all blame and fault on the other person in an excusive or condesceding manner. Example: "It's OK, we have problems talking to each other because you really aren't capable of understanding the whole picture. I'll just compensate for that."

* Denial
The inability to admit and take responsibility for ones actions and words concurrent with accusations and blame directed at the one abused. Examples: "I never said that, you can't get anything straight", "You’re lying, making that all up to make me look bad", "Where did you get that crazy idea?"

* Discounting / Dismissiveness
Denigration and/or denial of the experience, skills, maturity, and abilities of another; often marked by distortion and/or fabrication. Examples: "You call that art? Even a chimpanzee could do better than that!", "You so dumb you couldn't even add up two and two and get four!"

* Judgemental Criticism
Criticism that goes beyond neutral and/or constructive verbal correction of erroneous actions; comprised in part of ridicule, name calling, denigration, and/or humilation. Examples: "What are you, stupid? Can't you ever do anything right?", "You didn't even finish college, you're just a quitter and a failure"

* Humilation
Public or private intentional shaming and embarassment of any kind. Example: "oh, you need to be tolerant of him, he doesn't know any better"

* Manipulation
Appealing to and/or using another's sense of responsibility or obligation to achieve a personal goal. Example: "If you really loved me, you would..."

* Name Calling / Epithets
All name calling, and epithets directed at another are abusive.

* Ridicule
Making fun of and otherwise "putting down" another person or group based on their appearance, gender, competency, beliefs, ethnicity, culture, or religion. Example: "He will never amount to anything because he is just a "

* Teasing / Joking
Humor at the expense of another, comprised of humilation, dismissiveness, exaggeration and/or fabrication.

Great list of abusive behaviors. My point was that how we respond to this may reflect how we are conditioned by others in terms of reacting to verbal abuse, even as it is defined on the list you sent.

For example, some may say, leave a relationship if there is verbal abuse in play. Others will say, there are types of abuse that are more damaging than others, and much abuse that is the result of poor education in how to communicate. So work with the person engaging in this kind of communication.

If we all took drastic action like leaving relationhips or jobs or distancing from family and loved ones who from time to time engage in these kinds of verbal abuse, none of us would have anyone in our lives!!!

My point is that we need guidance on how to respond to any kind of verbal abuse, especially on the list you posted, so that we don't over-react. Most of us I imagine engage in this kind of communication from time to time as well, especially when we are operating from unconsciousness and old family communication patterns.

I love the Non-Violent Communication process, because it considers anything that is not loving to be "violent" communication and therefore to be improved. Thanks for posting that list.

i have been in a very verbally abusive relationship with my boyfriend for 10 years. He is constantly putting me down, embaressing me in front of others..and for most of the time I have been trying to 'make' him, stop, or adjust his behavior. I realize that, he can act however he likes. It is me, who has the problem. I ALLOW this. I ACCEPT this, because losing him is even more painful than his harsh words and painful remarks. How sad is that? I am very dependant on him, his approval, his mood, his love, his plans. I do not know how to be me....
Thank you for sharing your posts... They made alot of sense to me.

Kelly

No one deserves to be respected. It's earned. How can you earn it? Start with something small and stick with it.

It sounds like a control issue. As long he has the upper hand, which he's doing by having you submitting to him, what does he have to lose? Your emotions and feelings are being told to shut up. This is based in fear.

This is a model of what goes on when we try to speak and listen with someone. It starts with...
1. The event [subject matter] (or territory) basically, anything that is, leading to an encounter, involving...
2. Your five senses and intuition. The encounter of the senses and intuition with the event is called a percept.
3. Interpret. You assign a specific interpretation to the encounter of your senses and intuition with the territory by naming or labeling. The words you use create a "Map," which only points to reality, but not the real thing--the Territory. Words become maps to a territory.
4. Noise. There are three kinds of noise: External, Physiological and Psychological
5. Meaning. Includes the following realizations...
a. That clear and accurate communication is difficult.
b. That we never perceive things as they are, but as we are; e.g. railroad tracks seem to meet at a point on the horizon.
c. That our interpretations of 'events' become habits; we have concluded that a certain event meant a specific thing and always will. We have stopped using our senses to check the 'territory' in the present moment; therefore, we are not in touch with reality.
d. When we live in the world of maps, our life looses meaning.
e. That communication 'noise' can give us a false sense of what is real.

The above is a breakdown of what goes on when we're communicating, i.e. talking WITH each other, not To each other. One in monologue, like what David Letterman does at the beginning of his show. The other is dialogue.

Dialogue: the communication or sharing of emotions and feelings.
Discussion: the sharing of thoughts, values, the making of plans or decisions together and in general things of a predominantly intellectual nature.
There is supposed to be an emotional dialogue between both parties in a relationship before they can safely enter into a discussion about plans, choices, values etc.

Where is Boomergirl in this?

We get to have all of that going on when we talk with someone. By breaking it down, I hope you can see how the different parts work.

Take care

Great information, McFudd. Boomer, McFudd's post was the "how" and "why" to my cautionary note of labeling everything uncomfortable to us as "verbally abusive", because it can short circuit our own taking of responsibility for our perceptions of what we hear and what it means.