Cirrhosis Support Group

Thanks for posting these links WQ...........
Some observations:

They are research papers which probably are deep and meaningful to research scientists but absolute Greek to me!! :-)

Both papers seem to all about the reabsorption of scar tissue and the chemistry involved. This is encouraging though it is somewhat disappointing that this research now has increased impetus because of NASH and NAFLD both of which are attributed to obesity. Alcoholic cirrhosis is not mentioned but HCV gets plenty of air time.

I guess what I'm trying to say, albeit in a very bad way, that I find it somewhat 'infuriating' that because people are now eating way too much food and getting obese that cirrhosis starts to become a major issue and attracts research dollars.

The stigma of cirrhosis caused through alcohol (apparently) seems to be alive and well in the research community.

Sorry if this is negative and no offense meant to those suffering from NASH, NAFLD or HCV, but I fail to see how eating the wrong 'stuff' and too much of it is less of an evil than having a couple of drinks!!!

I'll probably get flak for posting this but it's the way I feel so WTF!!!

:-)

Craig

I agree Craig. We eat far too many "bad foods".

flak, flak, flak.

You overlooked a few things:

First, that the articles, I think at least one of them, states that at least since the 60's there was evidence that cirrhosis could actually improve;

Second, that they only started collecting data regularly since they became able to eliminate HCV, which wasn't possible until a few years ago;

Third, that nash, wich was thought to be harmless, will be one of the main causes of cirrhosis in the future;

Fourth, that due to the above, in at least one of the articles, it is clearly stated something which I have been suspicious of for a long time, that is, that there are far more people with this disease than the 10-20% who usually are indicated statistically, which means a lot of more people might actually have solved their problem without the help of doctors.

Fifth, and maybe more important, that improvement - regression or reversion - is independent of the cause of cirrhosis.

Now the reason that alcoholic cirrhosis is not mentioned, might be, in MHO, that it is difficult to make a trustworthy diagnosis of cirrhosis caused by alcoholic, since the criteria seems to be,"we couldn't find any other cause and, well, he does go to the pub a lot", and thus to make sure that it was drinking the underlying factor which, once removed, led to the improvement.

The good thing is, with NASH as a main cause of cirrhosis and companies such as mickyd's, coke, pepsi, nabisco, etc. being under the ever watchful eyes of class litigators, there might be more money and more research!

Very eloquently put my friend and I have to agree with your summations.

I think we also know that reversability/regression is possible - I only have to look at my own case to know that. Every day we learn more, We now know that coffee, melatonin, nutrition, vitamins and minerals all have a part to play in treating this disease and I believe I wrote in one of my journals some time ago that the days of cirrhosis being untreatable and irreversible should now be over.

All that remains is to educate the medical profession to drag their collective heads out of their respective asses!!!

Craig

ps, thanks for the flak - I was running short :-)


Craig

WQ,

You made my day! I will be back with some comments shortly.

Jeff

The below quote is from the article you have shared with us from the Scottish Medical Journal,

“Data from the histological assessment of biopsy tissue from patients with chronic liver disease of various etiologies who have been successfully treated, and from animal models of fibrosis, indicate that liver fibrosis is a dynamic, bi-directional process, wherein recovery with remodeling of scar tissue is possible. Furthermore, by understanding the cell and molecular mechanisms which mediate the reversibility of liver fibrosis we may establish the attributes required of an effective antifibrotic therapy.”

Just a few weeks ago, I was reading an article (I think it was from Science Daily but I’m not sure) about a new technology that scientists have developed that is advancing their research specific to enabling them to better understand the “cell and molecular mechanisms” involved in fibrosis which will help them to develop an “effective antifibrotic therapy” in liver disease.

I tried locating this article, but for the moment I cannot find it again. Instead, I found another extremely interesting news brief that just came out in June from the BBC titled “Drug Could Reverse Liver Disease”. The BBC reports that, “ There are hopes a blood pressure drug could reverse the effects of early-stage liver disease in some patients, and help them avoid a transplant. During a clinical trail, researchers at Newcastle University gave Iosartan, normally prescribed for hypertension, to 14 people with Hepatitis C. All the patients had liver scarring, but in half of them the scars shrank, allowing the organ to repair itself.”

The point of all of this is that I believe we have finally reached a point in liver disease research where the decades of previous research, combined with new technologies and the information age is now resulting in the breakthroughs we have learned about in the past few months (e.g. melatonin reversing fibrosis in mice, coffee halting the progression of fibrosis in Hepatitis C patients, and now even blood pressure medicine reversing fibrosis). What scientists will undoubtedly be studying right now are things like what does coffee, melatonin, and this particular blood pressure medicine all have in common.

I at first thought that maybe it must be the caffeine in coffee that might be beneficial to the liver. But scientists are pointing out that coffee is comprised of more than 1,000 compounds for which caffeine accounts for only 2 percent.

Jeff,
Well written, and while it is great to think there is a single magic drug which could cure cirrhosis, given its diversity of symptoms and effects it could well be that a cocktail of chemicals needs to be involved.

Each 'chemical' for want of better word would each play its part in addressing particular aspects of the disease. The combination of them would all work together to achieve the desired result.

I have thought and argued for some time now, that diet is critical in recovery in that a good diet with all the necessary vits and mins will do two things:

1. Feed the body and fix the damage done by the disease and,
2. Give the liver the nutrients necessary to have some rest time and build up the nutrients it needs to start self-regeneration.

I think it is clear that deploying such atom bombs as lactulose which leach the body of all that is good for it, do in fact make matters worse. The liver needs some TLC after all the abuse it has been through so I think a more holistic approach has an important part to play as the research continues for that silver bullet.

In any case, this is all really good positive stuff and I find it fascinating that even in the year I have been looking into cirrhosis, so much has come to light which does now give real hope where as before there was none!!

Craig

I am now Stage 4 Compensated and my Specialist feels I will stay that way for quite awhile. The trouble with all this research is that it takes so many years. By the time they come up with something to help, I'll be long gone.

Craig, I agree you with regarding the stigma attached to alcoholic induced cirrhosis. The fact that the vast majority of alcoholics will never develop cirrhosis shows that individuals who develop cirrhosis (many who consume much smaller amounts of alcohol) have a genetic susceptibility to acquiring this disease.

WQ, I couldn’t agree with you more. I am just glad that the research dollars are finally experiencing a shift because the growing number of Americans (literally millions) who are now at risk of developing cirrhosis because of Non-Alcoholic Liver Disease (NALD).

It is estimated that 1 out of 4 patients with Type 2 Diabetes has NALD and that 20 to 30 percent of these will develop NASH which precedes the development of cirrhosis. With approximately 23 million Americans who are Type 2 Diabetic and 57 million who are Pre-Diabetic (well on the road to developing full blown Type 2 Diabetes) this means the development of cirrhosis as a result of NALD could soon beat out all other causes in the U.S.

Craig, I also agree with you that it’s going to take a multifaceted approach and in the end we will continue to learn that much of the progression of fibrosis can be prevented, halted, and even reversed through diet. This is already being proven with the research studies on coffee consumption and liver disease and even taking milk thistle seems to show some evidence of benefits to the cirrhotic liver.

Human consumption of Melatonin will be the next substance closley studied by researchers, and its benefits to the liver may prove to be even more promising than coffee and milk thistle because of the recent study that showed actual reversal in fibrosis in mice!

BGPG, what is truly great about these scientific developments is that we don’t need to wait around for clinical trials to be conducted. As both Lost’s Cat mentioned on his thread about coffee and T-Bonz on another thread, we can all put coffee and melatonin on the grocery list. The scientific proof of that these substances are beneficial to those with advanced liver disease is very real and we can start using them now. If you happen to be sensitive to caffeine, I would suggest at a minimum that you drink de-caffeinated coffee because there are more than 1,000 compounds in coffee and scientists are not sure what ingredient in coffee is causing the progression of fibrosis to be stopped!

Craig, your story of the benefits of a balanced diet and vitamins is an inspiration to every single member and participant in this support group. I hope you continue to share more and more about what you are doing regarding your diet and what vitamins you are taking. I wouldn’t worry if you think that at times you might be sounding like a broken record. I believe that both diet and vitamins are so important that we need to continue hearing it over and over again.
By the way, I think we could use some guidance on what companies to purchase melatonin from because, as I believe you were getting at on another thread, many €companies in the alternative medicine industry are unregulated when it comes to the products they produce and sell.

BGPG, the research developments that are occurring now is not based on false hope. The findings are based on scientific evidence which is showing everyone what can be done now! Here is a link to the news brief that I mentioned earlier about the drug pressure medicine that shrank the scars of patients with cirrhosis enabling their livers to repair themselves. If you are taking a blood pressure medicine, perhaps you can request your doctor to allow you to try this one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tyne/8076692.stm

These are all very real reasons to have hope for extending both the length and quality of your life here. However, while I believe that all of this information provides everyone here very real reasons to genuinely embrace this hope in this world, I recommend placing all of your hope and trust in God in preparation of what comes after.

Jeff