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Discussion:
Hunter-Hopkins Center/Dr. Lapp (Very Long)
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**Please note that the following are my opinions based on my own personal experience and of course others may have different experiences. I am not attempting to provide medical advice or recommendations. I am simply sharing my experience in case it is helpful or useful to others.**

Following my visit to Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN (see post titled "Mayo Clinic Rochester, MN" dated June 24, 2012), I flew to Charlotte, NC for an appointment with Dr. Lapp at the Hunter-Hopkins Center (www.drlapp.com). Dr. Lapp is a consulting assistant professor at Duke University Medical Center and director/founder of the Hunter-Hopkins Center. He has specialized in the treatment of CFS and FM for more than 25 years. Given my lack of income and desperation to find sound treatment recommendations after being diagnosed with CFS at Mayo Clinic in June 2012, I spent considerable time researching the best CFS specialist (for me) to see. I considered Dr. Podell (www.drpodell.org), Dr. Bell (www.davidsbell.com), Dr. Cheney (www.cheneyclinic.com), Dr. Teitelbaum and his Fibromyalgia and Fatigue Centers (http://www.endfatigue.com/resources...

In the end, it was Dr. Lapp's years of experience with CFS and FM, his approach to treatment, the feedback of other patients, and the origin of the name of his clinic that swayed me to see him over the other doctors. Yes, you read that last one about the name of the clinic correctly. You can read the full story on his website (http://drlapp.com/more-hhc/story-of... but the short version is that Dr. Lapp named his center after two young women (Linda Hopkins and Allison Hunter) "because of the invaluable lessons they taught Dr. Lapp" (always listen to the patient, diligently look into all complaints and don't discount them). I was impressed by the fact that even though he could have named the center after himself, he chose to memorialize these two women.

My appointment was at 9:00 on a Monday. My husband and I met with Dr. Lapp's nurse, Nicole, who was very patient and kind. While meeting with her, Dr. Lapp was reviewing my medical records. He went through every report, lab test result, CT, MRI, PET scan, and X-ray (and I mean every one!), then met with my husband and I. I found Dr. Lapp to be kind, comforting, with a gentle sense of humor---an almost grandfatherly manner about him. I appreciated that he was a straight shooter and didn't sugar coat anything (I burst out in tears when he unexpectedly asked me if I had looked into applying for Social Security benefits---I am just not able to absorb that idea yet) but was also gentle in his approach.

My husband and I met with Dr. Lapp for 3 hours, during which time he asked follow up questions regarding my medical records, questions about my health, work, social, family history and completed a physical exam (didn't even have to take any clothes off!). Because of all the testing I had done at Mayo, we only had to do a few lab tests (HHV-6, Epstein-Barr, and I wanted a test done to check for exposure to toxic chemicals like pesticides). He also recommended a tilt-table-test (TTT) given my history of low blood pressure, passing out, and seizures and a bike stress test. I knew from Dr. Lapp's website that he would probably ask to do these test. I tried to have the cardiologist at Mayo order a stress test but she wouldn't saying something about fearing I might fall or pass out on the treadmill. Anyway, she did grant my request for a TTT but Mayo's version of a TTT only involves being upright for 10 minutes while a true TTT has you upright for 30-40 minutes or so. The results of my TTT at Mayo showed that after 10 minutes my heart rate (which was at 98/60 when lying down) dropped into the 70s upon being stood upright and despite my heart rate increasing my blood pressure never got above 82/68 during the 10 minutes I was upright. Still, the test at Mayo was negative because my heart rate did not increase by the magic number of 30 (my max was 21), which would indicate a diagnosis of POTS. I did feel nauseated and dizzy but I did not faint. The report from Mayo actually stated that there did not seem to be an orthostatic reason for the nausea and dizziness I reported during the TTT. Hmmm, heart working pretty hard to get blood flowing through body but blood pressure not going up even after 10 minutes. I guess that's not a problem in their world. Anyway, as much as I wanted to grab onto those test results as evidence that I don't have POTS (yay!), I couldn't. For one, I had suspected POTS since I had the seizures. Secondly, I had to question the validity of the TTT at Mayo. The technicians talked to me and each other during the test....all about a birthday party that one of the technician's was having for her son, yada, yada. Meanwhile, I am shifting around going crazy with discomfort. I did not learn until after the test that there isn't supposed to be conversation during the test and movement should be kept to an absolute minimum. Anyway, that was at Mayo but I am sure you know where this is going.....the TTT at Dr. Lapp's office showed a heart rate increase of more than 30 beats per minute during the first 10 minutes of the TTT. So, yes, POTS. Also, my blood pressure continued to drop (it never rose!) during the 30 minutes I was upright. It was really uncomfortable and I was doing everything I could not to vomit. Dr. Lapp seems to think that my seizures were actually a significant drop in blood pressure that caused me to pass out and have convulsions/jerking. It is called vasovagal syncope.

The bike stress test was also enlightening and yet discouraging. The results showed that my stamina drops off very quickly (within a few minutes) which didn't surprise me. What did surprise me was how poorly I did even when the results were compared to the normal population (non-PWCs) who are sedentary. I am 36 with a BMI of 23.8 and was completely healthy until 2009 (with the exception of a broken ankle at 16 and cold sores I have gotten all my life). So, I was stunned by how easily fatigued my body becomes (you would think this wouldn't have been a big shocker given my energy level, but it was for me).

Dr. Lapp and his nurse were with me the entire time I did the TTT and stress test. I was the only patient he had booked that day and I am pretty sure that it typically how he does things. I was in his office from 9 am to 4:30 pm with a break for lunch. It was exhausting but I preferred to get it all done rather than come back the next day. Dr. Lapp strategically had me do computer CNS test at the end of the day to asses my attention, concentration, and short term memory. By that point in the day, my brain was mush and the test results showed it. Now, I must disclose that I have a doctorate in clinical psychology and (when I was working) often gave similar tests to assess kids for ADHD. So, while I had never had this set of specific computerized tests, I am familiar with them and I know how they work. Despite this, many of my scores were below the 40th percentile and a surprising number were in the 1st percentile. I was shocked. You would have thought I just sat there staring out the window while the test was going on given the scores I got. I kept telling Dr. Lapp and my husband, I really did try. I really did. But the scores also totally back up everything I have experienced with my memory, concentration, focus.

Dr. Lapp reviewed the test results with my husband and I. He told us he would type up his report and mail it within a few days along with a letter to my employer. I asked about his recommendations about work. Now, I over the past 2 years I have cut my hours from 30 per week, to 20 per week and taken a 2-month medical leave. Despite my best efforts, I would always end up crashing after a period of time so I knew that I was not going to be able to go back to work fully and able to have consistent attendance after just a couple of months off. Been there. Done that. But I thought maybe 6 months. When I asked Dr. Lapp what his recommendation is, he told me that while he did not have a crystal ball, he was thinking maybe more like a year or two. Here is where I burst out into tears the second time. My employer has been incredibly supportive throughout all of this. Heck, if I was my boss, I would have fired me a long time ago. And despite their great benefits (which are even better than FMLA), they can only hold my job for a year. So, I have no idea what I am going to do on that front and have, quite frankly, pushed it out of my mind since I don't have to deal with it right now. I think I am secretly hoping for a miracle and that I'll be back within a year....even just a few hours a week!?!?!

If you are wondering about cost, the total bill came to $2600, which included the time for Dr. Lapp to review my records, face-to face time with him, the bike stress test, and the TTT. He did not charge me for the CNS computer (attention/memory) test. The price did NOT include lab fees for the blood draw as the lab will bill me separately for those. That is where having tests done at Mayo really helped as Dr. Lapp only needed to do a few lab tests. I have heard other people say they have had so many lab tests done at Hunter Hopkins Center that they had to give like 30 vials of blood! I only had to give 3. So, that will really cut down on cost. Also, Dr. Lapp makes it very clear that he is not about trying to make tons of money by running lots of tests. If you are able to have the tests done elsewhere (which is what I did at Mayo) and bring the results with you, that is just as good.

Overall, my experience at the Hunter-Hopkins Center (from the time I walked in the door to the time I left) was excellent. All of the staff are wonderful. I walked away with a full treatment plan and realistic hope. A plan and hope. That is really the best thing anyone could give me at this point in my life.

This post has become so outrageously long and I am so outrageously tired that I won't go into the details of my treatment plan. But if you would like that information, just let me know.


In lovingkindness,
Carrie
Posted on 06/24/12, 01:53 am
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Reply #1 - 06/24/12  12:53pm
" Carrie - Thank you for sharing this! Yes, I would love to hear the treatment plan when you are up to it! Good job on trying to find help for yourself!!

Love, Lynx "
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Reply #2 - 06/24/12  9:45pm
" I have been reading/using the CFIDS.org and links to the self-help articles by Dr. Lapp and Dr. Campbell for a months which has helped me try to learn to live with these illnesses. I agree they know what these illnesses are all about. I would love to go there for a plan, but couldn't do it financially as I had to retire early when I became too ill to work at all. Please share your plan as you are able! My hope is to just manage my symptoms better...they just all keep flaring...I stay crashed! Glad you got answers! -B "
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Reply #3 - 06/24/12  9:54pm
" In Mayo's defense, they don't specialize in any one illness. A clinic like Hunter Hopkins can't be compared to a medical center like Mayo. "
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Reply #4 - 06/26/12  4:08am
" Thank you for sharing your experience at both places.

I think it is fair to compare the 2 places. This is a cfs group. Someone may be trying to decide their next step. Having some personal opinions like this can help them.

I live in another part of the country and still find these useful. It shows that going to a clinic that deals only or mainly with cfs is likely to bring better results than going to a major hospital/clinic that has a cfs unit. Of course this depends on which 2 places you are looking at.

I went to a chronic fatigue clinic in Washington state where I live. It is the most helpful medical place I've been to for cfs. This Dr. Lapp and his staff sounds even better.

The chronic fatigue clinic I went to is in a big hospital, but to my knowledge it is the only thing close to a cfs specialist in my area. Not that it matters since I can't afford to see a dr anymore. I swear I'd only go if I needed antibiotics or had an emergency. That's the way it has to be unless I win the lotto or something.

I too am interested in your treatment plan. I know it is tailored to you and therefore will not apply to all of us. But if you are having some similar symptoms to me I might give that part of your treatment a try if there is no prescription involved.

The thing that impressed me about your story about Dr. Lapp is that he talked with you about how much time he thought you should take off from work and about applying for social security. That means he would be willing to help you get it.

I got an almost diagnosis. As in 1 of my symptoms I hadn't had for a full 6 months. I am way past that point now, but can't aford to seek medical care. This makes me think I would not qualify for any kind of benefits due to disability. I would have a very hard time proving it. But I didn't know that $ from disability was an option until 6 months after I had to quit work. If that had been discussed with me I would have known to get the diagnosis before I quit my job...and I'm certain I would have gotten it by then. "
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Reply #5 - 06/28/12  12:40pm
" Thank you Carrie, I respect Dr. Lapp from wha I've seen him say at conferances. Glad they dx'd POTS. All the best.

Al "
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Reply #6 - 07/22/12  4:17pm
" Hi everyone,

Thank you for your kind and supportive words. A few people had asked about the treatment plan/recommendations Dr. Lapp made and I have written them below. Please note that the following treatment plan was developed by Dr. Lapp based on my personal history, symptoms, lab test results, tilt-table test, bike stress test, and physical exam. Only time will tell if these treatments will be effective for me and I am certainly not saying they will be effective for anyone else. I am not attempting to provide medical advice or recommendations. I am simply sharing my experience in case it is helpful or useful to others.

Treatment Recommendations made by Dr. Lapp, Medical Director of Hunter-Hopkins Center

Dr. Lapp's take on CFS is that there are 4 key aspects of CFS/FM: 1. Exertional (stay active if possible but not too active) 2. Postural (lying down feels better than standing/sitting) 3. Hyper-sensitivities (e.g. chemicals, light) 4. Stress intolerance (mental stress and emotional stress are like physical stress in that they all result in exhaustion)

PACE: Dr. Lapp recommended that I lay down and take 2-3 rest periods each day for 10-30 minutes and if it is longer and/or I fall asleep that is ok, too. He recommended that during that time I absolutely clear my mind (pray, meditate, listen to soothing music, etc.)

LIMIT SETTING: Stay within "the envelope." I am still learning about "the envelope," although many of you are probably familiar with the concept. I know there is also the spoon theory as well. Dr. Lapp's message to me was to try to still have a couple of spoons/dollars/whatever object floats your boat left at the end of the day.

ACTIVITY:
--Daily stretching (nothing too strenuous....neck movements, shoulder rolls, scapular squeezes)
--Light weights (1-2 pounds) to do arm curls, etc.
--Low level, slowly progressive aerobic activity (3-5 minutes of exertion, then 5 minutes of rest, 3-5 minutes of exertion, then five minutes of rest, etc.). This may be walking, carrying groceries, riding a stationary bike. The idea is to start at 3-5 minutes and gradually build over months.
--Aside from the activity mentioned below, Dr. Lapp recommended that I wear a heart monitor and keep my heart rate at or below 108 beats per minute. This is hard to do! Just walking up a few stairs causes the monitor to go off (you can buy ones that your program to alert you if you go over a certain threshold). Dr. Lapp arrived at 108 beats per minute by doing a bike stress test (that is the point where activity goes from being anaerobic to aerobic for me). You can get a general idea of this number for yourself by subtracting the maximum heart rate (230) from your age and then multiplying that number by 0.6. For example, I am 36 so I would subtract 36 from 230 and arrive at 194. Then, I multiply 194 by 0.6, which is 116. So, using that formula, I would want to keep my heart rate at or below 116 beats per minute (except during the activity/rest exercises described above). Now, when I did the bike stress test, it showed that my anaerobic/aerobic rate was a little lower (108 beats per minute) than the formula so we are going with 108 BPM. But you don't have to have a bike stress test to get a general sense of what your number is. As you can see, the formula was only 8 beats off in my case.

SCHEDULE: Establish a baseline routine and try to keep to it. Aim for 8-10 hours of sleep and a set, fixed wake up time

VITAMINS/SUPPLEMENTS: I was already taking a good multivitamin, omega-3, Vitamin D3 (2500 IU), DHEA (25 mg), Magnesium, L-Lysine, Armour thyroid, Wellbutrin, adrenal glandular. We are keep all of those except for the adrenal glandular (for now). Dr. Lapp added the following: CoQ10, Acetyl carnnitine, and a B12 injection (1000 micrograms) every other day.

SYMPTOMATIC THERAPIES: Dr. Lapp emphasized the importance of getting good sleep every night (I used to sleep all the time and now I am often tired/wired) and he prescribed a sleep aid. I had been using Nyquil and still often do and he said that was fine, I just need to try to get a good sleep cycle. He recommended at least 72 ounces of water and lots of salt (5-6 grams?) each day to help with the POTS symptoms. We also talked about pain meds for the FM but I am managing with Motrin. As you can probably tell, I already feel like I am taking so many meds, I don't want more unless I absolutely need them. I tested positive for HHV-6 antigens and so we may do a test to see if there is an active infection. If there is, then we may try an antiviral in the future but right now want to see how this treatment plan goes over the next few months. I am hesitant to try an antiviral as I have read they are pretty toxic to the body and results with CFS patients are modest. I would be curious to hear of other people's experiences, especially with Ampligen.

He also wrote me out of work for at least the next 6 months and said it may be a year or two before I can go back (at which point I burst out into tears). Dr. Lapp told me, ok brace yourself here, that 60% of his patients fully recover over time (typically 4-7 years after onset of illness) and the remaining 40% typically improve but not to the point of full recovery.

Ok, I think that is everything. I hope it is helpful!

In lovingkindness,
Carrie "
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Reply #7 - 07/23/12  10:46am
" I forgot to include in the treatment plan that Dr. Lapp has recommended walking at least 1,000 steps but no more than 5,000 steps per day. He gives his patients a pedometer to help keep track.

I am also doing a few things on my own so to speak: accupuncture, reiki energy work, and hopefully soon some "gentle" yoga "
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Reply #8 - 07/23/12  12:19pm
" Carrie - Thank you so much for sharing your treatment plan. I like how Dr. Lapp is easing you into things. On the salt did he recommend a sea salt like Celtic salt? I certainly like his recovery rates - very hopeful. Be gentle with yourself and I send you loving energy to heal. "
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Reply #9 - 07/23/12  3:18pm
" Hi Lynx,

Yes, he actually did say sea salt but not Celtic salt specifically. I am sure that would work though, since it is a sea salt.

The thing I have had the hardest time is with the "restrictions." I pushed-crashed for 3 years, which obviously was getting me no where but I at least felt that when I was pushing I was able to do what I wanted for the most part but paid the price. Pacing was not in my vocabulary. Seriously, I had never heard of it. Of course, I also did not know I had CFS. So, to go from that to my heart rate monitor going off every 30 seconds because my heart rate is above 108 BPM, watching my steps, etc. has been more challenging than I would have thought.

I am working on acceptance, though and hopefully all of this will lead to recovery. My husband is working on creating a log for me to track my daily activities and symptoms so we can look at progress/decline over time.

Thanks for your interest. I hope it was helpful. I am sending some healing energy your way as well.

With light and love,
Carrie "

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